SEU (Southern Eastern University) updates

[*AQuietPlace*]

This is like a soap opera, weird, and it keeps getting weirder.
And the forum going down today was straight off of "The Twilight Zone". :lol


::::::::cue Twilight Zone music::::::

[Maximilian]

Yes, please tell me the crashing of the site was pure coincidence.

[notofworks]

Yes, please tell me the crashing of the site was pure coincidence.


It has crashed before and yes, today was PURE coincidence.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Yes, please tell me the crashing of the site was pure coincidence.
The hard drive probably kicked the bucket because of all of the extra traffic this thread was generating.

[Maximilian]

The hard drive probably kicked the bucket because of all of the extra traffic this thread was generating.

Maybe it's time for a platform upgrade. Where's all our neighborhood techies?

[Jason B]

Maybe it's time for a platform upgrade. Where's all our neighborhood techies?

Probably cramming for an SEU doctorate or something..I hear it takes 3-5 hours of study to get one. :ursofunny

[Maximilian]

AFF should sponsor their own Doctorates.

[Praxeas]

Where's Jeffry?

[DAII]

This is like a soap opera, weird, and it keeps getting weirder.

Oh it gets weirder ... considering the roots of SEU and its founder and those who claim to its alumni ... including Oneness ministers Stoneking, Art Wilson and .... now Kalwunt Boora.

It's founder is Count Daniel Grimaldi or Daniel Swann... convicted con-man:

A sheepskin on Tesfai’s wall comes from Southern Eastern University, a London-based school incorporated in Arkansas that officials do not acknowledge. The school was founded by Count Daniel de Grimaldi, a purported member of the Monaco royal family whose real name, according to news reports, is Daniel Swann, a crook sentenced to prison in 1999 in England for stealing disability payments. Grimaldi allegedly used Bogaerts’ name and identity to justify phony disability payments.

http://www.laweekly.com/content/printVersion/45748


These abstracts speak of the SEU's founders tactics:

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?issn=0040-0912&volume=27&issue=3&articleid=1703180&show=pdf&PHPSESSID=t90b6r2st8qv5op2nhe18jljq2

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?articleid=1703195&show=pdf

[DAII]

John Bear is the foremost expert in distance learning.

He is the author of Bears' Guide to Earning Degrees by Distance Learning ... now in its 16th edition

As posted previously he lists Southern Eastern University as a diploma mill in Chapter 25 of his 12th edition and others as well.

On page 229 of his 2003 edition he speaks of Count Daniel Grimaldi/Swann ....
http://books.google.com/books?id=k67XC_7y5xEC&pg=PA349&lpg=PA349&dq=john+bear+distance+learning+book+2003&source=bl&ots=PTU4fpMj6r&sig=B9_VdLIsgxHuT-8Yt6chPSEtCoQ&hl=en&ei=4WE0TJL0C4


A forum poster, who is believed to be John Bear at various degree forums goes into some detail about the nefarious founder of SEU here:

http://www.degreediscussion.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3759

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/distance-learning-discussions/7985-southern-eastern-university.html

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDMgWp2afWI/AAAAAAAAAlE/JXd7YfzQcUg/s1024/bear%20on%20grimaldi.png

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDMgWgcFiNI/AAAAAAAAAlI/kuAFStEi8Hg/bear2.png

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDMuZP4WNoI/AAAAAAAAAlU/bTVx-mkiEmM/bear3.jpg

Art ... Lee ... Kulwant ????

It don't matter if its signed or honorary.

You've been sold a bag of goods!!!

[DAII]

John Bear is the foremost expert in distance learning.

He is the author of Bears' Guide to Earning Degrees by Distance Learning ... now in its 16th edition

As posted previously he lists Southern Eastern University as a diploma mill in Chapter 25 of his 12th edition and others as well.

On page 229 of his 2003 edition he speaks of Count Daniel Grimaldi/Swann ....
http://books.google.com/books?id=k67XC_7y5xEC&pg=PA349&lpg=PA349&dq=john+bear+distance+learning+book+2003&source=bl&ots=PTU4fpMj6r&sig=B9_VdLIsgxHuT-8Yt6chPSEtCoQ&hl=en&ei=4WE0TJL0C4

[DAII]

A forum poster, who is believed to be John Bear at various degree forums goes into some detail about the nefarious founder of SEU here:

http://www.degreediscussion.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3759

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/distance-learning-discussions/7985-southern-eastern-university.html

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDMgWp2afWI/AAAAAAAAAlE/JXd7YfzQcUg/s1024/bear%20on%20grimaldi.png

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDMgWgcFiNI/AAAAAAAAAlI/kuAFStEi8Hg/s1024/bear2.png

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDMuZP4WNoI/AAAAAAAAAlU/bTVx-mkiEmM/bear3.jpg

Art ... Lee ... Kulwant ????

It don't (yes, don't) matter if its signed or honorary.

You've been sold a bag of goods!!!

[DAII]

This is a response to the unwarranted comments, posted on the Apostolic Friends Forum regarding Mr. Lee Stoneking.

Firstly, the individual who posted such comments appears to be an individual that consistently posts comments on websites about other individuals, so it should not come as a surprise to see such conduct. In addition to this, it appears that the person has also violated the policy of the Apostolic Friends Forum, by using the forum as a means to circulate his or her propaganda.

Secondly, in speaking with the former Chair of SEU’s committee recently in Europe, communication was provided that verified that Mr. Stoneking was awarded an honorary Ph.D., from SEU, prior to the appointment of Mr. Johnson as Director. Mr. Johnson is currently being apprised of the matter by the former Chair of SEU in Europe. Mr. Stoneking has not been in any dialogue or direct communication with the author of such defamatory comments, who call’s themselves Baron.

As Mr. Stoneking’s British lawyer, we are currently looking into some additional matters regarding the underlying policies of the Apostolic Friends Forum, since we have been provided with confirmation and verification of Mr. Stoneking’s credentials and status. We anticipate that this resolves any misunderstanding.
Mr. Stoneking was honored by these schools for his lifetime work (SEU, ICW) he paid no funds or fees. you should print a retraction of your statements.

There is growing speculation that the person posing to be Mr. Stoneking's lawyer may be Dr. Kulwant Singh Boora.

Boora, is a noted Oneness scholar and a British lawyer (?)who is highly touted by his friend and fellow AFF poster, James Anderson here:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=932221


As Timmy astutely noticed, Boora, also claims a degree from SEU in Boora's Amazon book bio:

[QUOTE=Timmy;932221]http://www.amazon.com/Oneness-God-Doctrine-Trinity/dp/1449008437?ie=UTF8&tag=book0e37-20&link_code=bil&camp=213689&creative=392969

About the Author

The author was born in Birmingham, England, United Kingdom and is of Indian descent growing up in a Sikh family. He holds a Bachelor of Arts with Honors from Staffordshire University, England and also studied law at Sutton Coldfield College where he completed his Professional Diploma in Law and Higher Professional Diploma in Law in conjunction with the Institute of Legal Executives Tutorial College of Law; he went onto complete his Graduate Diploma in Law/CPE (Law Society of England and Wales Common Professional Examinations) with Hertfordshire University School of law, England. He studied theology and biblical interpretation with Kings Evangelical Divinity School and the University of Wales; he also completed his studies in religion with Southern Eastern University. Mr. Boora also serves as an Adjunct Professor of International Law with the Washington Institute of Graduate Studies.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDRx0TYazjI/AAAAAAAAAlw/cKyTTNs8N6E/s1024/boora1.png

Albeit, it must be stressed that appears that Boora is not able to practice law here .... not having any apparent links to any U.S. bar .... much less an ABA accredited law degree

Also of interest is Boora's own article that explains the seemingly less stringent criteria for a person to practice law in England ... here:
http://www.malet.com/MSG%202008/Pathways%20to%20the%20Legal%20Profession%20in%20En gland.htm

It seems paralegals can practice law in England :thumbsup

[DAII]

More on Kulwant who has claimed some degrees from various legitimate colleges but also from SEU....

He was featured in this 2009 Apostolic News Article ....

http://www.apostolicnews.org/2009/12/ex-sikh-convert-shares-his-incredible-testimony/

http://www.apostolicnews.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/boora.jpg

Unbeknown to me trying to preserve the privacy of this person in this photo ... I orginally blurred it out ....

But I now realize it is "Doctor" Singh along with Art Wilson and Lee Stoneking.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDJIYPcwCEI/AAAAAAAAAk8/iiBxnF2O90I/artlee2.png

[rgcraig]

Ya know, I don't get the whole "spiritual father" thing - - - mentor maybe, but spiritual father? Isn't our Lord Jesus spiritual enough to be our father?

[DAII]

Source: http://www.spokesmanreview.com/data/diploma-mill/

"The names of nearly 10,000 people surfaced in a federal investigation of a Spokane diploma mill that was selling phony and counterfeit high school and college degrees. While not everyone on the list prepared by the U.S. Department of Justice purchased a diploma or certificate, the department found information about the people listed below in various records kept by those running the diploma mill.

The list, which the U.S. Department of Justice refused to release to the public but provided to state officials around the country, was obtained by The Spokesman-Review and published July 28, 2008.

After the list was circulated, sources familiar with the investigation indicated that some individuals didn't necessarily buy degrees, but their names surfaced for various reasons during Operation Gold Seal. Those names, indicated with a single asterisk (*), should not be considered confirmed degree buyers, sources said.

Names with a double asterisk (**) are individuals who provided information that they did not buy a degree based on documents from the Justice Department obtained through the Freedom of Information Act. The documents, which indicated they only contacted the diploma mill seeking information, have been provided to The Spokesman-Review.

Also see: Diploma mill degree information, in military, gov"

Click here to access some of the names. (http://www.spokesmanreview.com/data/diploma-mill/)


----------------------------------------------------------

Typed in the name Kulwant Boora.

Why does the name Kulwant Boora sound familiar?

Baron, Timmy .... do we know a Kulwant Boora?

Again maybe just a coincidence? but didn't Boora adjunct at the University of Ohio?

[Justin]

Ya know, I don't get the whole "spiritual father" thing - - - mentor maybe, but spiritual father? Isn't our Lord Jesus spiritually enough to be our father?

Amen. Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Maybe some people have two fathers.... awkward. :toofunny

[DAII]

When AFF went down yesterday and briefly today there was significant chatter on a masonic preacher's forum that a lawyer may have gotten the forum shut down for investigation and a possible lawsuit
looming :D .... OF COURSE THE AFF SHUTDOWN UNFOUNDED AND FALSE ... despite some chest bumping and high fiving within the Enseyite mafia and sympathizers.

... other shennanigans have also been reported regarding "lawyers" in the last 24 hours.

I firmly believe the integrity and reputation of Oneness academia hangs in th balance despite petty games, threats and intimidation.

[*AQuietPlace*]

How do legitimate "honorary" degrees work? Is it something you request?
Or is it usually bestowed on you by someone else - in other words, their idea, not yours??
I'm pretty sure you don't buy legitimate "honorary" degrees.

[rgcraig]

There is growing speculation that the person posing to be Mr. Stoneking's lawyer may be Dr. Kulwant Singh Boora.

Boora, is a noted Oneness scholar and a British lawyer (?)who is highly touted by his friend and fellow AFF poster, James Anderson here:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=932221


As Timmy astutely noticed, Boora, also claims a degree from SEU in Boora's Amazon book bio:


http://lh4.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDRx0TYazjI/AAAAAAAAAlw/cKyTTNs8N6E/s1024/boora1.png

Albeit, it must be stressed that appears that Boora is not able to practice law here .... not having any apparent links to any U.S. bar .... much less an ABA accredited law degree

Also of interest is Boora's own article that explains the seemingly less stringent criteria for a person to practice law in England ... here:
http://www.malet.com/MSG%202008/Pathways%20to%20the%20Legal%20Profession%20in%20En gland.htm

It seems paralegals can practice law in England :thumbsup

Wow!

[Justin]

How do legitimate "honorary" degrees work? Is it something you request?
Or is it usually bestowed on you by someone else - in other words, their idea, not yours??
I'm pretty sure you don't buy legitimate "honorary" degrees.

Right, it's not "honorary" if you buy it.

[Encryptus]

AFF should sponsor their own Doctorates.

BUMP for Daniel.

Perhaps you can find the old thread where AFF did offer them?

[DAII]

Right, it's not "honorary" if you buy it.
Did you check the database of those who have purchased?

[pelathais]

Yes, please tell me the crashing of the site was pure coincidence.

Several sites went down. A hard drive crashed and had to be replaced. I don't know the specifics of this set up - but everything at apostolic.net was affected.

Let me see, "Max" ... how about this... I am personally stating that your buddies Lee Stoneking and "Art" who has posted here as "Knight" are associated with an ongoing criminal enterprise.

Both of these men have boasted of receiving either "honorary" or "earned" doctorates from a Diploma Mill that has been charged with fraud in the past and whose current "president" was arrested by Oregon police for fleeing from prosecution on a charge of child rape in the State of Washington.

The Skagit County District Court (Mount Vernon, WA) records list this case as still "open" (see the attached screen shot).

What sort of twisted behavior is this? The man who awarded Lee Stoneking and Art their "doctorates" is NOT associated with any legitimate educational institution. He dressed up "like a girl" and committed felony acts on a child according to the sworn deposition of the arresting officer.

This is enough to crash anybody's hard drive!

[Justin]

Did you check the database of those who have purchased?

I didn't see Stoneking or Wilson on the list. Maybe they got theirs after the July 28 2008 date?

[DAII]

I didn't see Stoneking or Wilson on the list. Maybe they got theirs after the July 28 2008 date?

No but Kulwat is. Keeping in mind this one is out of Spokane and probably not related to SEU

[Justin]

No but Kulwat is. Keeping in mind this one is out of Spokane and probably not related to SEU

Oh, I thought this database was somehow connected to SEU.

[pelathais]

Oh, I thought this database was somehow connected to SEU.

What database are you looking at?

[DAII]

What database are you looking at?

Read last 2 pages ... bro.

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/data/diploma-mill/

[DAII]

Well, well ... look who has a satellite for the Institute:

STRAIT GATE INTERNATIONAL CHURCH
32894 Prescott
Romulus, Michigan 48174 USA
(734) 753-5750
Pastor Dr. Arthur C. Wilson
Dr. Kulwant Singh Boora
Directors

www.ofmbi.com/files/OFMBI_CATALOGUE-ICW2.doc

[DAII]

More on the Spokane Diploma mill from the Seattle Times seemingly linked to a Kulwant Boora: ....

Spokane diploma mill officer sentenced to prison
A man described as the chief financial operator of a Spokane-based diploma mill has been sentenced to three years in federal prison.

SPOKANE, Wash. —
A man described as the chief financial operator of a Spokane-based diploma mill has been sentenced to three years in federal prison.

Steven Karl Randock Sr. got the same sentence Tuesday that his wife, Dixie Ellen Randock, was given last month. Both pleaded guilty earlier to conspiracy to commit wire and mail fraud, and charges of money laundering were dropped in exchange.

During six years, the Randocks and six others sold high school and college degrees from 121 fictitious online schools, as well as counterfeit diplomas and transcripts from 66 legitimate universities, government lawyers said. About 10,000 degrees were sold to more than 9,000 people.

Had they fought the charges and been convicted by a jury, the Randocks would have each faced more than seven years to nearly nine years in prison on the conspiracy charge alone.

Besides his prison term, Randock was sentenced to three years of court supervision and was ordered to forfeit his interest in more than $500,000 in seized cash and bank accounts, real property and a 2001 Jaguar XK8, U.S. Attorney James A. McDevitt said.

His wife has appealed her sentence.

Defense lawyer Peter S. Schweda asked in vain that Randock be sentenced to home detention because of health problems. Assistant U.S. Attorney George J.C. Jacobs countered that Randock, 69, would get adequate medical care in prison.

more ....

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008095236_apwadiplomamill1stldwritethru.html


This one offered 31 or more flavors like Baskin Robbins. 121 to be exact.

[Justin]

Well, well ... look who has a satellite for the Institute:

STRAIT GATE INTERNATIONAL CHURCH
32894 Prescott
Romulus, Michigan 48174 USA
(734) 753-5750
Pastor Dr. Arthur C. Wilson
Dr. Kulwant Singh Boora
Directors

www.ofmbi.com/files/OFMBI_CATALOGUE-ICW2.doc

That's their old address. AW recently moved buildings:

International Church
31650 Van Born Rd
Wayne, Michigan 48184

http://www.theinternationalchurch.org/

[pelathais]

Someone needs a plumb line to set their gate a little straighter.

[DAII]

Someone needs a plumb line to set their gate a little straighter.

Tip of the iceberg.

http://londoncoder.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/iceberg.jpg

[Justin]

I might not be following properly, but how is the college in Washington, the ICW and SEU connected?

It seems there is a connection from Dr. Kulwant Singh Boora to the Washtington degree-mill and Dr. AW; and Dr. AW and Dr. Kulwant Singh Boora are both directors of a satellite institute for the ICW; and Dr. AW and Dr. LS are both connected to SEU.

Is ICW a legitimate college, or another degree-mill, such as the Washington State college and SEU?

[DAII]

I might not be following properly, but how is the college in Washington, the ICW and SEU connected?

It seems there is a connection from Dr. Kulwant Singh Boora to the Washtington degree-mill and Dr. AW; and Dr. AW and Dr. Kulwant Singh Boora are both directors of a satellite institute for the ICW; and Dr. AW and Dr. LS are both connected to SEU.

Is ICW a legitimate college, or another degree-mill, such as the Washington State college and SEU?

The Spokane college mill offered fake degrees from over 121 colleges and 66 legit colleges.

ICW seems to have a course load ... however one's credits are totaled cumulatively it appears which can bypass the undergrad work... and then just writing a paper is necessary for the ICW doctorate ... That's how I read it. Definitely another unaccredited theological institution.

Knight did claim the ICW doctorate was honorary for lifetime achievement which again legally and according to the ICW .... it is not a PhD but has another designation.

[pelathais]

I might not be following properly, but how is the college in Washington, the ICW and SEU connected?

It seems there is a connection from Dr. Kulwant Singh Boora to the Washtington degree-mill and Dr. AW; and Dr. AW and Dr. Kulwant Singh Boora are both directors of a satellite institute for the ICW; and Dr. AW and Dr. LS are both connected to SEU.

Is ICW a legitimate college, or another degree-mill, such as the Washington State college and SEU?

The Spokane college mill offered fake degrees from over 121 colleges and 66 legit colleges.

ICW seems to have a course load ... however one's credits are totaled cumulatively it appears which can bypass the undergrad work... and then just writing a paper is necessary for the ICW doctorate ... That's how I read it.

Knight did claim the ICW doctorate was honorary for lifetime achievement which again legally and according to the ICW to the school is not a PhD.

Also, the U.S. "president" of the ICW lives in Skagit County, Washington. Several of the links at the ICW site lead to a PO Box in Mount Vernon, WA.

I haven't seen his name come up yet in the Spokane reports and Skagit County is in the western part of the state on Puget Sound.

[Charnock]

Well, well ... look who has a satellite for the Institute:

STRAIT GATE INTERNATIONAL CHURCH
32894 Prescott
Romulus, Michigan 48174 USA
(734) 753-5750
Pastor Dr. Arthur C. Wilson
Dr. Kulwant Singh Boora
Directors

www.ofmbi.com/files/OFMBI_CATALOGUE-ICW2.doc

Daniel, check out their belief statements.

Hardcore trinitarian.

[DAII]

Daniel, check out their belief statements.

Hardcore trinitarian.

Maybe they've compromised the curriculum for the greater good.

[JN Anderson]

Someone needs to get these guys some jobs. I will let other people speak for themselves but what is your point in the negative direction you have taken your lives? Is this the type of thing that you want to define you? I love Oneness Pentecostalism with all her problems and failures. These exist in every attempt to organize human beings.

I think though it is very important we decide which direction we are taking. Are you for Oneness Pentecostalism or are you against it? Daniel Alicea? John? Pel? I would like to know since both of you have only defined your theological views around fringe issues in OP (magic hair, diploma mills). I understand criticism but are you trying to really help it or tear it down. I think it would be nice if you at least state your motivations here.

[notofworks]

Someone needs to get these guys some jobs. I will let other people speak for themselves but what is your point in the negative direction you have taken your lives? Is this the type of thing that you want to define you? I love Oneness Pentecostalism with all her problems and failures. These exist in every attempt to organize human beings.

I think though it is very important we decide which direction we are taking. Are you for Oneness Pentecostalism or are you against it? Daniel Alicea? John? Pel? I would like to know since both of you have only defined your theological views around fringe issues in OP (magic hair, diploma mills). I understand criticism but are you trying to really help it or tear it down. I think it would be nice if you at least state your motivations here.


You'd love for them to stop, wouldn't you?

[JN Anderson]

Pel, John, DA - do you guys have any theological writings on the Trinity, Oneness, New Birth, Pentecostalism, etc? Please share them with us. It would help us get a better image of you plus I love to read.

[JN Anderson]

You'd love for them to stop, wouldn't you?

No. Please don't psychoanalyze my posts. :)

[Kim Komando]

Popcorn anyone????

http://images.zaazu.com/img/male29-male-theater-cinema-smiley-emoticon-000071-large.gif

[notofworks]

No. Please don't psychoanalyze my posts. :)


But it's what I do. I have a Phd in psychoanalyzation.

[D. Wright]

Someone needs to get these guys some jobs. I will let other people speak for themselves but what is your point in the negative direction you have taken your lives? Is this the type of thing that you want to define you? I love Oneness Pentecostalism with all her problems and failures. These exist in every attempt to organize human beings.

I think though it is very important we decide which direction we are taking. Are you for Oneness Pentecostalism or are you against it? Daniel Alicea? John? Pel? I would like to know since both of you have only defined your theological views around fringe issues in OP (magic hair, diploma mills). I understand criticism but are you trying to really help it or tear it down. I think it would be nice if you at least state your motivations here.

If love for Oneness Pentecostalism means being deceitful, lying and bullying, then I might start questioning it.

[Kim Komando]

Someone needs to get these guys some jobs. I will let other people speak for themselves but what is your point in the negative direction you have taken your lives? Is this the type of thing that you want to define you? I love Oneness Pentecostalism with all her problems and failures. These exist in every attempt to organize human beings.

I think though it is very important we decide which direction we are taking. Are you for Oneness Pentecostalism or are you against it? Daniel Alicea? John? Pel? I would like to know since both of you have only defined your theological views around fringe issues in OP (magic hair, diploma mills). I understand criticism but are you trying to really help it or tear it down. I think it would be nice if you at least state your motivations here.
James, who is John?

[Kim Komando]

If love for Oneness Pentecostalism means being deceitful, lying and bullying, then I might start questioning it.

Bullying? Men of God ... Bullying and lying?

[JN Anderson]

But it's what I do. I have a Phd in psychoanalyzation.

I never liked Freud.

[notofworks]

If love for Oneness Pentecostalism means being deciteful, lying and bullying, then I might start questioning it.


In the case of what we're all witnessing currently? It most certainly DOES mean being deceitful, lying and bullying. It's totally that. Like DAII said....."Tip of the flippn' iceberg!! (I threw in the "flippin':))

[JN Anderson]

If love for Oneness Pentecostalism means being deceitful, lying and bullying, then I might start questioning it.

How has their been deceit?

Who has lied?

Who has been bullied?

[D. Wright]

Bullying? Men of God ... Bullying and lying?

Really. Who'd a thunk?

[notofworks]

I never liked Freud.

And I never liked you so I guess we're almost even!:lol

[notofworks]

How has their been deceit?

Who has lied?

Who has been bullied?


We'll all know soon, won't we?:thumbsup

[JN Anderson]

And I never liked you so I guess we're almost even!:lol

So, you are saying you are Freud? :) Interesting.

[Kim Komando]

How has their been deceit?

Who has lied?

Who has been bullied?

:pullhair

James are you serious?

[notofworks]

So, you are saying you are Freud? :) Interesting.

I might as well. We have everyone claiming they're doctors, so why the heck not?

[D. Wright]

How has their been deceit?

Who has lied?

Who has been bullied?

Well, for starters there has been deceit with the Phd's.

Lying, hmmmmmm someone named Knight stating he was LS's British lawyer.

Bullied, not sure you are privy to that.

[*AQuietPlace*]

How has their been deceit?

Who has lied?

Who has been bullied?
Claiming to have a doctorate when you don't is very deceitful.

[notofworks]

:pullhair

James are you serious?


He wants desperately to believe he's serious. I think he's nervous right now, actually.

[Justin]

In the case of what we're all witnessing currently? It most certainly DOES mean being deceitful, lying and bullying. It's totally that. Like DAII said....."Tip of the flippn' iceberg!! (I threw in the "flippin':))

What's the old saying...

"When you see one cockroach, there's bound to be a lot more!"

[pelathais]

How has their been deceit?

Who has lied?

Who has been bullied?

Following the screen shots below it seems that there has been some deceit that leads right to your doorstep, JA.

This "Doctor" Boora of Ohio who purchased a fraudulent degree from a degree mill in Spokane, WA, appears to be the same individual from a Oneness church in Toledo, Ohio, that a prominent UPC pastor cites as a "template" for a wedding service and whose books you promote.

[JN Anderson]

I might as well. We have everyone claiming they're doctors, so why the heck not?

Touche. We should always try to be better though! :)

[Kim Komando]

Following the screen shots below it seems that there has been some deceit that leads right to your doorstep, JA.

This "Doctor" Boora of Ohio who purchased a fraudulent degree from a degree mill in Spokane, WA, appears to be the same individual from a Oneness church in Toledo, Ohio, that a prominent UPC pastor cites as a "template" for a wedding service and whose books you promote.

More cowbell. Did he get that doctorate at SEU?

[JN Anderson]

Following the screen shots below it seems that there has been some deceit that leads right to your doorstep, JA.

This "Doctor" Boora of Ohio who purchased a fraudulent degree from a degree mill in Spokane, WA, appears to be the same individual from a Oneness church in Toledo, Ohio, that a prominent UPC pastor cites as a "template" for a wedding service and whose books you promote.

Interesting. I never knew this. I don't know the point in the second image though? Explain.

[pelathais]

Someone needs to get these guys some jobs. I will let other people speak for themselves but what is your point in the negative direction you have taken your lives? Is this the type of thing that you want to define you? I love Oneness Pentecostalism with all her problems and failures. These exist in every attempt to organize human beings.

I think though it is very important we decide which direction we are taking. Are you for Oneness Pentecostalism or are you against it? Daniel Alicea? John? Pel? I would like to know since both of you have only defined your theological views around fringe issues in OP (magic hair, diploma mills). I understand criticism but are you trying to really help it or tear it down. I think it would be nice if you at least state your motivations here.

Those who associate themselves with criminal organizations are the ones who are "tearing down" the Oneness message.

As I pointed out in another thread - I went through something like this before when the President of Gateway College was indicted for fraud. It was front page news while I was at Bible school.

As it turns out, the president was only trying to make a fast buck and had been badly duped. He was never charged and appears to have been innocent of everything except very poor judgement.

I learned something from that... sort of. I did persist within the "mainstream" of the Oneness movement. As a result, I myself was investigated by local police and the FBI due to the antics of another local UPC pastor. That's when I began to wise up.

Please. Learn from my experience JA.

[DAII]

Interesting. I never knew this. I don't know the point in the second image though? Explain.

James, see pages 52-54. It more than adequately discusses the questions you might have.

[pelathais]

Interesting. I never knew this. I don't know the point in the second image though? Explain.

It's a link identifying the "Kalwant Boora" identified in the Spokesman Review article with the Oneness author in Ohio at J. Mark Jordan's church.

Jordan doesn't appear to be involved in any way except in establishing the identity of "Dr." Boora from Ohio.

[JN Anderson]

It's a link identifying the "Kalwant Boora" identified in the Spokesman Review article with the Oneness author in Ohio at J. Mark Jordan's church.

Jordan doesn't appear to be involved in any way except in establishing the identity of "Dr." Boora from Ohio.

I see. Kal told me that he began in Pastor Jordan's church.

[Justin]

I wonder just how many licensed UPCi minsters have degrees from "degree-mills"?

[pelathais]

I wonder just how many licensed UPCi minsters have degrees from "degree-mills"?

It would be easier to count how many have legitimate degrees.

Part of the problem has been hostility to the Oneness message on the part of some Trinitarian institutions. The answer to that, however, is not to go out and buy a fake sheepskin and try to pass yourself off as a "Doctor."

[JN Anderson]

It would be easier to count how many have legitimate degrees.

Part of the problem has been hostility to the Oneness message on the part of some Trinitarian institutions. The answer to that, however, is not to go out and buy a fake sheepskin and try to pass yourself off as a "Doctor."

Good point

[Maximilian]

It would be easier to count how many have legitimate degrees.

Part of the problem has been hostility to the Oneness message on the part of some Trinitarian institutions. The answer to that, however, is not to go out and buy a fake sheepskin and try to pass yourself off as a "Doctor."

I'm Oneness and have not once endured hostility trying to earn a legit theology degree. What sort of hostility are we talking about?

Another part of the problem is those more concerned about veneer, image, having the title and having little desire for actual learning.

[DAII]

I'm Oneness and have not once endured hostility trying to earn a legit theology degree. What sort of hostility are we talking about?

Another part of the problem is those more concerned about veneer, image, having the title and having little desire for actual learning.

Right. But I believe it is ingrained and inherent in a performance-based culture that makes such stark distinction between "ministry" and "laity".

A systemic problem and symptom.

[Justin]

I'm Oneness and have not once endured hostility trying to earn a legit theology degree. What sort of hostility are we talking about?

Another part of the problem is those more concerned about veneer, image, having the title and having little desire for actual learning.

And the result... buy your doctorate from a degree-mill and save yourself from all of that "learning" hassle.
:bliss

[Pro31:28]

I'm Oneness and have not once endured hostility trying to earn a legit theology degree. What sort of hostility are we talking about?

Another part of the problem is those more concerned about veneer, image, having the title and having little desire for actual learning.

Does anyone else not see an interesting correlation here?

Religiously: clean up the outside, make yourself presentable to others- do not talk about what might be going on in your heart or your personal life because then you are "unspiritual"- At least that's what my former experience was. Is it so far a leap to think that someone who is taught to dress and act the part, would see a huge problem with claiming a degree to look better?

Maybe I am reaching here, I probably am, but there it seems that once you become good at pretending to be religious on the outside, the "props" just seems to come easier as well...
Just a thought.

[Maximilian]

Does anyone else not see an interesting correlation here?

Religiously: clean up the outside, make yourself presentable to others- do not talk about what might be going on in your heart or your personal likfe because then you are "unspiritual"- At least that was my former experience was. Is it so far a leap to think that someone who is taught to dress and act the part, would see a huge problem with claiming a degree to look better?

Maybe I am reaching here, I probably am, but there it seems that once you become good at pretending to be religious on the outside, the "props" just seems to come easier as well...
Just a thought.

I think that's a very worthy observation, and yes, one I was hinting at myself.

I definitely see a relationship.

[Justin]

Does anyone else not see an interesting correlation here?

Religiously: clean up the outside, make yourself presentable to others- do not talk about what might be going on in your heart or your personal life because then you are "unspiritual"- At least that's what my former experience was. Is it so far a leap to think that someone who is taught to dress and act the part, would see a huge problem with claiming a degree to look better?

Maybe I am reaching here, I probably am, but there it seems that once you become good at pretending to be religious on the outside, the "props" just seems to come easier as well...
Just a thought.

Great point, just like the pharisees. These guys are clean cut and well educated (at least the degrees hanging on their walls say so), but on the inside, yuck! Looks like a few licensed UPCi minsters should have listened to Jesus.

If Holiness always starts on the inside, why is it that the "outside" is always taught first?

[Baron1710]

Just for the sake of making it clear, I have not been scared off I just don't have the time today. And James if you and your friends persist in your criminal misrepresentation and threats, I will follow up on it.

[pelathais]

I'm Oneness and have not once endured hostility trying to earn a legit theology degree. What sort of hostility are we talking about?

Another part of the problem is those more concerned about veneer, image, having the title and having little desire for actual learning.

Many theological seminaries had a requirement that those attending sign a confession of faith expressing belief in some form of the Doctrine of the Trinity.

As it relates to our Bible Schools getting accreditation, the national accrediting body for Bible Schools (I forget which acronym) had for years required acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity as stated in their belief statement. In the past 20 or 30 years, there have been many "Independent" accrediting bodies pop up, but there have also been many scandals of academic credentials similar to the ones being discussed here.

[pelathais]

Does anyone else not see an interesting correlation here?

Religiously: clean up the outside, make yourself presentable to others- do not talk about what might be going on in your heart or your personal life because then you are "unspiritual"- At least that's what my former experience was. Is it so far a leap to think that someone who is taught to dress and act the part, would see a huge problem with claiming a degree to look better?

Maybe I am reaching here, I probably am, but there it seems that once you become good at pretending to be religious on the outside, the "props" just seems to come easier as well...
Just a thought.

I think that's a very worthy observation, and yes, one I was hinting at myself.

I definitely see a relationship.

Same here. We don't need to play "dress up."

[MissBrattified]

Does anyone else not see an interesting correlation here?

Religiously: clean up the outside, make yourself presentable to others- do not talk about what might be going on in your heart or your personal life because then you are "unspiritual"- At least that's what my former experience was. Is it so far a leap to think that someone who is taught to dress and act the part, would see a huge problem with claiming a degree to look better?

Maybe I am reaching here, I probably am, but there it seems that once you become good at pretending to be religious on the outside, the "props" just seems to come easier as well...
Just a thought.

Very interesting thoughts....

[Standards]

Same here. We don't need to play "dress up."

So...do you walk around naked?

[Jeffrey]

Many theological seminaries had a requirement that those attending sign a confession of faith expressing belief in some form of the Doctrine of the Trinity.

As it relates to our Bible Schools getting accreditation, the national accrediting body for Bible Schools (I forget which acronym) had for years required acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity as stated in their belief statement. In the past 20 or 30 years, there have been many "Independent" accrediting bodies pop up, but there have also been many scandals of academic credentials similar to the ones being discussed here.

Is this for graduate level coursework or undergrad as well? It's not happened to me yet. Others? Maybe we can have a tag in for those attending religious schools.

That sort of shennanigan really seems to undermine the academic objective. I've found more and more a safe environment to ask questions and put it out there. I can tell you that my belief concerning the godhead thus far has been a non-issue, and I even wrote a final paper criticizing the traditional view of the godhead (poking holes and asking questions of it). No backlash. In fact, I was put on the Dean's list of the college after that term. I'd have a much harder time in a Oneness school, questioning the doctrine of the Oneness... at least I'd think I would.

I see a day when we can just follow Jesus, and accept each other for where we were. Godhead theology or not. Different ideas about healing, prayer, faith... but that we were all following Jesus having these discussions in the umbrella of love and discipleship.

[MissBrattified]

So...do you walk around naked?

Standards: In one sense of the word, walking around "naked" is a great idea.

[Hoovie]

Does anyone else not see an interesting correlation here?

Religiously: clean up the outside, make yourself presentable to others- do not talk about what might be going on in your heart or your personal life because then you are "unspiritual"- At least that's what my former experience was. Is it so far a leap to think that someone who is taught to dress and act the part, would see a huge problem with claiming a degree to look better?

Maybe I am reaching here, I probably am, but there it seems that once you become good at pretending to be religious on the outside, the "props" just seems to come easier as well...
Just a thought.

Interesting, but I think it's indeed a stretch to say those teaching dress standards and behavior standards are somehow more prone to touting unearned degrees. Conservative "holiness" groups aside, it appears these degree mills have flourished in society at large.

I actually believe a case could be made, that a large portion of the so-called "Holiness" groups view degrees and education in it's entirety with skepticism.

[Jeffrey]

Just for the sake of making it clear, I have not been scared off I just don't have the time today. And James if you and your friends persist in your criminal misrepresentation and threats, I will follow up on it.

JG? Ahem, this is what you refer to as a "call out."

We support you, Baron.

[Jeffrey]

Interesting, but I think it's indeed a stretch to say those teaching dress standards and behavior standards are somehow more prone to touting unearned degrees. Conservative "holiness" groups aside, it appears these degree mills have flourished in society at large.

I actually believe a case could be made, that a large portion of the so-called "Holiness" groups view degrees and education in it's entirety with skepticism.

But it's an interesting trend in the conservative Holiness movement, as we've seen over the past week. Put the names down, examine the credentials. Yes, indeed, we could call it a "trend."

BTW, word has it that UGST is now fully accredited.

[Jeffrey]

So...do you walk around naked?

The opposite of "dress up" is to "dress down." But nice try.

[MissBrattified]

Interesting, but I think it's indeed a stretch to say those teaching dress standards and behavior standards are somehow more prone to touting unearned degrees. Conservative "holiness" groups aside, it appears these degree mills have flourished in society at large.

I actually believe a case could be made, that a large portion of the so-called "Holiness" groups view degrees and education in it's entirety with skepticism.

True, and that skepticism can bleed over into a disrespect for the educational process as a whole. And perhaps some narcissistic competition at play. ("I'm just as smart as he is, and I don't have a degree...oh, wait...I have one NOW.")

[Maximilian]

I heard one of the more educated in Pentecost that his only purpose for getting a degree was so he could take away that objection from his argument and say "i've been there done that, and I still believe this." Whatever motivates and floats your boat I guess.

Of course his educational track record also excludes any schools of excellence in their reputation. And if I see one more "Christian Minstries" or "religion" degree passed off as a CHristian theology degree I will scream. Well, not really.

[Pro31:28]

Same here. We don't need to play "dress up."

I graduated this past May with my BA in Communication- with a 3.71. I can not tell you how angry I was at the A-'s and B's that I received, two from a professor who I reported as having unfair grading practices (he DID NOT give A's and was proud of it)- But I will say that for four years I worked hard and EARNED every grade I got (that professor not counting). I am competent in the field of communication and the several job interviews that I have recently been on confirm that I know what I need to know in my field.

BTW- The professor was not invited back to teach another semester :evilglee Don't mess with this chick or my family :thumbsup

[Hoovie]

But it's an interesting trend in the conservative Holiness movement, as we've seen over the past week. Put the names down, examine the credentials. Yes, indeed, we could call it a "trend."

BTW, word has it that UGST is now fully accredited.

It may be a trend - I am sure it's true for some. I am excited to know we are abandoning what appeared to be anti-intellectualism of the past, but certainly don't want that answered with fake degrees!:pullhair


Great to hear that about UGST!

[Pro31:28]

Standards: In one sense of the word, walking around "naked" is a great idea.

LOVE IT!! :bliss

[Maximilian]

But it's an interesting trend in the conservative Holiness movement, as we've seen over the past week. Put the names down, examine the credentials. Yes, indeed, we could call it a "trend."

BTW, word has it that UGST is now fully accredited.

Jeffrey, I really like you. I've read all the wonderful things you've written, and man, you are a stud :) *wink*

UGST. Haven't Apostolic schools for a long time now been claiming to be the "only Apostolic school" with accredition?

[rgcraig]

Standards: In one sense of the word, walking around "naked" is a great idea.

Absolutely!

Maybe a better term would be "transparent", but I agree completely!

[rgcraig]

JG? Ahem, this is what you refer to as a "call out."

We support you, Baron.

Not JG.

[Maximilian]

It may be a trend - I am sure it's true for some. I am excited to know we are abandoning what appeared to be anti-intellectualism of the past, but certainly don't want that answered with fake degrees!:pullhair


Great to hear that about UGST!

Yeah, makes me wondering if we have fully abandoned the "anti-intellectualism" at all if it's not true academic learning being exemplified.

Pentecostals in general have certainly made much progress in this area, particularly the AOG. I have much respect for UGST as well.

[RandyWayne]

Interesting, but I think it's indeed a stretch to say those teaching dress standards and behavior standards are somehow more prone to touting unearned degrees. Conservative "holiness" groups aside, it appears these degree mills have flourished in society at large.

I actually believe a case could be made, that a large portion of the so-called "Holiness" groups view degrees and education in it's entirety with skepticism.

Why do you think this is? I have my theory and it concerns science classes that young Christian minds full of mush will be forced to "endure" and am pretty sure many have gone off to college with every book written by Morris and Ham in their suitcases. Of course I say this sarcastically since most of these science classes are long overdue......
It can be a scary thing when you are no longer in control of what your yutes learn.

[Hoovie]

True, and that skepticism can bleed over into a disrespect for the educational process as a whole. And perhaps some narcissistic competition at play. ("I'm just as smart as he is, and I don't have a degree...oh, wait...I have one NOW.")

OMW! Say that's not happening! Anyone with that attitude deserves to be nailed for sure.

I am an EMT.... hey I:bliss can now do lung transplants!

[Maximilian]

OMW! Say that's not happening! Anyone with that attitude deserves to be nailed for sure.

I am an EMT.... hey I:bliss can now do lung transplants!

That's a pretty accurate broad brush I'd say. At least among the older guard.

[Hoovie]

Why do you think this is? I have my theory and it concerns science classes that young Christian minds full of mush will be forced to "endure" and am pretty sure many have gone off to college with every book written by Morris and Ham in their suitcases. Of course I say this sarcastically since most of these science classes are long overdue......
It can be a scary thing when you are no longer in control of what your yutes learn.

Science could be a part of it, but I think it goes far beyond that.... somehow the "imminent return of Christ" has been interpreted to mean to "future matters little" aside from the eternal investment of church, prayer, and saving your neighbor's soul.

[Maximilian]

Science could be a part of it, but I think it goes far beyond that.... somehow the "imminent return of Christ" has been interpreted to mean to "future matters little" aside from the eternal investment of church, prayer, and saving your neighbor's soul.

Eschatological fervor definitely played a part in the disregarding of learning in early Pentecostalism.

[Pro31:28]

Interesting, but I think it's indeed a stretch to say those teaching dress standards and behavior standards are somehow more prone to touting unearned degrees. Conservative "holiness" groups aside, it appears these degree mills have flourished in society at large.

I actually believe a case could be made, that a large portion of the so-called "Holiness" groups view degrees and education in it's entirety with skepticism.

I am certainly not making a blanket statement. I would agree with you- but I think that when we learn the "shortcuts" to God we take them in other areas of life as well.

[MissBrattified]

OMW! Say that's not happening! Anyone with that attitude deserves to be nailed for sure.

I am an EMT.... hey I:bliss can now do lung transplants!

I don't know, Hoovie. (Or maybe I do?) :)

Wouldn't you agree that narcissism comes into play when you truly believe you deserve a degree you haven't earned? I would assume those purchasing degrees either feel they don't have the ability to earn a degree and thus must bypass that step, OR they feel they deserve one even though they haven't done the work. Beyond that, being competitive with other denominations or ministers and proving we are just as educated as *they* are could be another motive.

[Maximilian]

I am certainly not making a blanket statement. I would agree with you- but I think that when we learn the "shortcuts" to God we take them in other areas of life as well.

:thumbsup

But sadly, there are no shortcuts. There's only one road of discipleship and there's no getting around the cross.

[Pro31:28]

:thumbsup

But sadly, there are no shortcuts. There's only one road of discipleship and there's no getting around the cross.

I know that now :thumbsup

[Hoovie]

I am certainly not making a blanket statement. I would agree with you- but I think that when we learn the "shortcuts" to God we take them in other areas of life as well.


A subject worthy of exploration. I would want to investigate it from the viewpoint of replacing (shortcutting) lifelong (or at least long-term) discipleship with one or two ecstatic experiences. There is really no shortcut to many things in life.

[rgcraig]

Just for the sake of making it clear, I have not been scared off I just don't have the time today. And James A. if you and your friends persist in your criminal misrepresentation and threats, I will follow up on it.

Just making sure this has been seen!

[Hoovie]

I don't know, Hoovie. (Or maybe I do?) :)

Wouldn't you agree that narcissism comes into play when you truly believe you deserve a degree you haven't earned? I would assume those purchasing degrees either feel they don't have the ability to earn a degree and thus must bypass that step, OR they feel they deserve one even though they haven't done the work. Beyond that, being competitive with other denominations or ministers and proving we are just as educated as *they* are could be another motive.

I just want to believe that for most it's not narcissism so much as their gullibility. Those peddling these "degrees" likely do a slick sell job - touting the importance of the candidate's "life experience" and any published works they might have.

[pelathais]

Is this for graduate level coursework or undergrad as well? It's not happened to me yet. Others? Maybe we can have a tag in for those attending religious schools.

That sort of shennanigan really seems to undermine the academic objective. I've found more and more a safe environment to ask questions and put it out there. I can tell you that my belief concerning the godhead thus far has been a non-issue, and I even wrote a final paper criticizing the traditional view of the godhead (poking holes and asking questions of it). No backlash. In fact, I was put on the Dean's list of the college after that term. I'd have a much harder time in a Oneness school, questioning the doctrine of the Oneness... at least I'd think I would.

I see a day when we can just follow Jesus, and accept each other for where we were. Godhead theology or not. Different ideas about healing, prayer, faith... but that we were all following Jesus having these discussions in the umbrella of love and discipleship.

I would think that you would be the best one to tell me when - or even if it happened to you. I was speaking of the scene around 30 years ago. A lot has changed since then. The whole "open campus" thing has opened up far more things than just the campus.

Our institutions still lag behind - and I think it's because we want to be like the "trinnies" were 30 years ago. We want to control. We want to enforce conformity now.

[Maximilian]

I would think that you would be the best one to tell me when - or even if it happened to you. I was speaking of the scene around 30 years ago. A lot has changed since then. The whole "open campus" thing has opened up far more things than just the campus.

Our institutions still lag behind - and I think it's because we want to be like the "trinnies" were 30 years ago. We want to control. We want to enforce conformity now.

Definitely same experience for me right now. Not sensing a big push for control of beliefs, encouragement of open dialogue, room for intellectual curiosity, etc. Very positive experience.

[MissBrattified]

I just want to believe that for most it's not narcissism so much as their gullibility. Those peddling these "degrees" likely do a slick sell job - touting the importance of the candidate's "life experience" and any published works they might have.

I'm sure gullibility is also an issue here. :) I wouldn't want to malign the character of every person with a bogus degree. Circumstances do need to be examined, and fact finding should be the goal--not assassination.

[pelathais]

But it's an interesting trend in the conservative Holiness movement, as we've seen over the past week. Put the names down, examine the credentials. Yes, indeed, we could call it a "trend."

BTW, word has it that UGST is now fully accredited.

That would be great! They need to update their website.

http://www.ugst.org/page.cfm?p=136#opportunities%20prior%20to%20accred itation

Q: What opportunities are available for UGST graduates before the school is accredited?

A: At this time three accredited seminaries have given us letters of equivalency, which state that they will accept our credits. This in itself could be seen as a form of de facto accreditation. UGST has been accepted as a Candidate member of the Association of Theological Schools (ATS) . This is known as pre-accreditation. UGST anticipates that it will be able to reach full accreditation by 2010. UGST students currently qualify for federal loans and the school will qualify for foundation funding.

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[Maximilian]

That would be great! They need to update their website.

http://www.ugst.org/page.cfm?p=136#opportunities%20prior%20to%20accred itation

Q: What opportunities are available for UGST graduates before the school is accredited?

A: At this time three accredited seminaries have given us letters of equivalency, which state that they will accept our credits. This in itself could be seen as a form of de facto accreditation. UGST has been accepted as a Candidate member of the Association of Theological Schools (ATS) . This is known as pre-accreditation. UGST anticipates that it will be able to reach full accreditation by 2010. UGST students currently qualify for federal loans and the school will qualify for foundation funding.

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That news was breaking as of yesterday, so give the site a week or two. I'm sure they will pump this big for the Fall registration.

[Maximilian]

Of course, these guys claim full accredition too: www.goast.org

[pelathais]

That news was breaking as of yesterday, so give the site a week or two. I'm sure they will pump this big for the Fall registration.

(sigh!) It would only take a few minutes to update the site.

Nothing is real until the relevant sites have been updated. There's a crescent moon outside right now - but I can't see it in the sky. I have to consult my astronomy widget to verify. Even the heavens are subject to site updates.

[Maximilian]

(sigh!) It would only take a few minutes to update the site.

Nothing is real until the relevant sites have been updated. There's a crescent moon outside right now - but I can't see it in the sky. I have to consult my astronomy widget to verify. Even the heavens are subject to site updates.

A very worthy source leaked that information to me. A faculty member at UGST.

[Maximilian]

Battle of the Faculty as the "Premier Apostolic Bible School"

http://www.ugst.org/page.cfm?p=156

vs.

http://www.goast.org/ast/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=41

Advantage: UGST. #1 more Doctoral level professors with specific concentrations in Theology, and with years of teaching/publishing under their belts. Oh, and they have a classroom environment option still. AST is accredited now through Hope University, a non-denominational liberal arts school, not known for a religious or theological acumen in the field.

[pelathais]

Of course, these guys claim full accredition too: www.goast.org

The home page advertises one man's testimony that he receives financial aid from the military because of the accreditation. But unless I missed it - they don't tell us who they are accredited with.

"Accredited

Through AST, you can earn regionally accredited associate's, bachelor's, and master's degrees. We provide the highest level of performance, integrity and quality. Accreditation is valuable for many reasons. Several advantages are:

Validation of quality that is recognized internationally.
Recognition from external sources, such as other colleges, universities, governmental agencies, corporations, and employers.
Transferability of credits from school to school.
Accessibility for students to state and federal loans, scholarships, post secondary education, and military programs that require regional accreditation."

To say "regionally accredited" is nomenclature for the groups like the Western Association of Schools and Colleges. Why don't they announce loudly just who they are accredited with?

[Maximilian]

The home page advertises one man's testimony that he receives financial aid from the military because of the accreditation. But unless I missed it - they don't tell us who they are accredited with.

"Accredited

Through AST, you can earn regionally accredited associate's, bachelor's, and master's degrees. We provide the highest level of performance, integrity and quality. Accreditation is valuable for many reasons. Several advantages are:

Validation of quality that is recognized internationally.
Recognition from external sources, such as other colleges, universities, governmental agencies, corporations, and employers.
Transferability of credits from school to school.
Accessibility for students to state and federal loans, scholarships, post secondary education, and military programs that require regional accreditation."

To say "regionally accredited" is nomenclature for the groups like the Western Association of Schools and Colleges. Why don't they announce loudly just who they are accredited with?

Pretty sure they've had accredition with WASC for some time. Now, as I understand, their degree program is through Hope University.

[Cindy]

Who decides who gets accredited? The government?

[pelathais]

Pretty sure they've had accredition with WASC for some time. Now, as I understand, their degree program is through Hope University.

Ah! They are operating under some sort of license from Hope University? So they are not accredited, technically, but Hope is and bestows its favor upon Apostolic somethingoranother?

[Maximilian]

A normal citing of a school's accredition http://www.hiu.edu/about/accreditation/

I've heard AST is now "through Hope." Some deal they've worked out I guess.

@Cindy, Here's one of the accreditions websites: http://www.wascweb.org/

It's basically an association of schools and colleges (thus, WASC), the are governed by accrediting commissions. It helps maintain a standard for academics.

[Maximilian]

Ah! They are operating under some sort of license from Hope University? So they are not accredited, technically, but Hope is and bestows its favor upon Apostolic somethingoranother?

Yes, but they claimed accredition prior to Hope. I remember hearing about this several years back.

Not sure how they worked that out with Hope. It's surprising to say the least! Hope is probably wanting to beef up with theology department registration? Not sure. They aren't known for theology, that's for sure.

[Praxeas]

John Bear is the foremost expert in distance learning.

He is the author of Bears' Guide to Earning Degrees by Distance Learning ... now in its 16th edition

As posted previously he lists Southern Eastern University as a diploma mill in Chapter 25 of his 12th edition and others as well.

On page 229 of his 2003 edition he speaks of Count Daniel Grimaldi/Swann ....
http://books.google.com/books?id=k67XC_7y5xEC&pg=PA349&lpg=PA349&dq=john+bear+distance+learning+book+2003&source=bl&ots=PTU4fpMj6r&sig=B9_VdLIsgxHuT-8Yt6chPSEtCoQ&hl=en&ei=4WE0TJL0C4


A forum poster, who is believed to be John Bear at various degree forums goes into some detail about the nefarious founder of SEU here:

http://www.degreediscussion.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3759

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/distance-learning-discussions/7985-southern-eastern-university.html

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDMgWp2afWI/AAAAAAAAAlE/JXd7YfzQcUg/s1024/bear%20on%20grimaldi.png

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDMgWgcFiNI/AAAAAAAAAlI/kuAFStEi8Hg/bear2.png

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDMuZP4WNoI/AAAAAAAAAlU/bTVx-mkiEmM/bear3.jpg

Art ... Lee ... Kulwant ????

It don't matter if its signed or honorary.

You've been sold a bag of goods!!!
Im telling you...I don't give a hoot that they went with this/got burned by them, but I would be embarrassed to state I got a degree from them in my bio for all the world to see. It's not an achievement!

[Maximilian]

Ah! They are operating under some sort of license from Hope University? So they are not accredited, technically, but Hope is and bestows its favor upon Apostolic somethingoranother?

Apparently. There's a HIU banner on the AST website.

[Maximilian]

Battle of the Faculty as the "Premier Apostolic Bible School"

http://www.ugst.org/page.cfm?p=156

vs.

http://www.goast.org/ast/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=41

Advantage: UGST. #1 more Doctoral level professors with specific concentrations in Theology, and with years of teaching/publishing under their belts. Oh, and they have a classroom environment option still. AST is accredited now through Hope University, a non-denominational liberal arts school, not known for a religious or theological acumen in the field.

Check out one of the Staffer's listed qualifications on the website:

http://www.goast.org/ast/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=41

Also, it looks like a good chunk of the Faculty are Sacramentans. I'll give them this, when it comes to Liberal Arts, their staff seems to have good qualifications for undergrad study.

[pelathais]

Who decides who gets accredited? The government?

No. The Accrediting agency. A school applies for membership in something like the North Central Association of Universities and Colleges. People from the association visit the campus and check things out. There's generally an evaluation period and any students who graduate during the period before accreditation are "grandfathered" in and their degrees are recognized when the school comes onboard fully with the association.

The states can and do regulate the process. For example, in many states you can't call yourself a "Ph.D." unless you have a doctorate from a regionally accredited school. Religious schools are given all sorts of waivers to the process but the degrees are not "Ph.Ds" unless the school is regionally accredited.

This sort of thing varies from state to state, so it gets confusing. Most folks are simply trusted to follow an "honor system" and not claim something more of themselves than they ought.

And that's the thing here. The first guy whose name came up in all of this is a very successful evangelist and minister. He has accomplished a great deal of things in his life that he can rightly be proud of. He doesn't need any phony sheepskin. His "credentials" can stand on their own.

Except for this one matter of a single controversial teaching. He seems willing to throw away a life time of achievement and respect for this one bit of hooey.

[Cindy]

A normal citing of a school's accredition http://www.hiu.edu/about/accreditation/

I've heard AST is now "through Hope." Some deal they've worked out I guess.

@Cindy, Here's one of the accreditions websites: http://www.wascweb.org/

It's basically an association of schools and colleges (thus, WASC), the are governed by accrediting commissions. It helps maintain a standard for academics.

Okay, thanks.

[Praxeas]

Well, well ... look who has a satellite for the Institute:

STRAIT GATE INTERNATIONAL CHURCH
32894 Prescott
Romulus, Michigan 48174 USA
(734) 753-5750
Pastor Dr. Arthur C. Wilson
Dr. Kulwant Singh Boora
Directors

www.ofmbi.com/files/OFMBI_CATALOGUE-ICW2.doc (http://www.ofmbi.com/files/OFMBI_CATALOGUE-ICW2.doc)
This is beginning to seem like a Multi Level Marketing scheme,,,which unfortunately UPCers like to do to make money, probably because they got a network of people who will believe anything you tell them.

[Maximilian]

According to the site, NW is on the Board of Trustees at Hope International University.

[Maximilian]

This is beginning to seem like a Multi Level Marketing scheme,,,which unfortunately UPCers like to do to make money, probably because they got a network of people who will believe anything you tell them.

Can you say "Avon?"

[Praxeas]

The Spokane college mill offered fake degrees from over 121 colleges and 66 legit colleges.

ICW seems to have a course load ... however one's credits are totaled cumulatively it appears which can bypass the undergrad work... and then just writing a paper is necessary for the ICW doctorate ... That's how I read it. Definitely another unaccredited theological institution.

Knight did claim the ICW doctorate was honorary for lifetime achievement which again legally and according to the ICW .... it is not a PhD but has another designation.
Honorary degrees are purely to gove honor to someone. Dignitaries like Bill Clinton and others often get them from prestigious universities....they don't go around boasting now that they have a Doctorate. It's purely for honorific purposes not academic

[Maximilian]

Honorary degrees are purely to gove honor to someone. Dignitaries like Bill Clinton and others often get them from prestigious universities....they don't go around boasting now that they have a Doctorate. It's purely for honorific purposes not academic

:thumbsup

[Maximilian]

No one likes to have a knock-off brand :)

[Cindy]

So is the consensus that LS, did or did not know that his "degree" was phony? Of course he would know if he ever attended an actual school somewhere, either in England or the U. S. And is it legal for someone to claim to have a degree from somewhere that they don't have? Which would be fraud I guess. I am a little confused on just how he committed fraud if he didn't know the thing was fake, or did not use the title Dr. or PhD.

[Cindy]

Honorary degrees are purely to gove honor to someone. Dignitaries like Bill Clinton and others often get them from prestigious universities....they don't go around boasting now that they have a Doctorate. It's purely for honorific purposes not academic

As does Bill Cosby. And he is a strong advocate for education.

[Praxeas]

Someone needs to get these guys some jobs. I will let other people speak for themselves but what is your point in the negative direction you have taken your lives? Is this the type of thing that you want to define you? I love Oneness Pentecostalism with all her problems and failures. These exist in every attempt to organize human beings.

I think though it is very important we decide which direction we are taking. Are you for Oneness Pentecostalism or are you against it? Daniel Alicea? John? Pel? I would like to know since both of you have only defined your theological views around fringe issues in OP (magic hair, diploma mills). I understand criticism but are you trying to really help it or tear it down. I think it would be nice if you at least state your motivations here.
The criticisms here have not been aimed at Oneness Pentecostalism but a few individuals. Honestly I find this embarrassing to the Oneness movement and it makes it hard to be taken seriously on any academic or intellectual level to have teachings such as HMH and have individuals sporting PH.ds that are bogus or they did not earn.

Read the evidence...this is looking more and more like a MLM scheme than it is a legit place of Higher Learning. The UPCI needs to do something about this. They should make a by law stipulating that ministers can only claim PH.ds that are legit and they need to investigate what looks like has become a MLM for someone in the UPC where they get a friend to join then start a branch and call themselves professors

[Maximilian]

Usually, when honorary doctorates are conferred on candidates, it is called a "Doctor of Divinity." The more prestigious the school, the higher the honor.

[Cindy]

Can you say "Avon?"

Right. Or Tupperware. Same premise.

[Maximilian]

As does Bill Cosby. And he is a strong advocate for education.

Actually, Cosby earned an Ed.D. from the University of Massachusetts.

In addition, he has been honored the Presidential Medal of Freedom, "Man of the Year" award from Harvard, Bob Hope Humanitarian Award.... I couldn't find anything about honorary degrees for him, though he'd fit the perfect profile for such an honor.

EDIT: Nevermind. A quick Google search yielded these results:


Honorary Doctor of Humane Letters degree from Virginia Commonwealth University, December 5, 2008.[21]
Honorary Doctor of Humane Letters degree from Carnegie Mellon University, May 20, 2007; he was also the keynote speaker for the commencement ceremony.[22]
Honorary Doctor of Music degree from Berklee College of Music, May 8, 2004.[23] Cosby was also the host of the school's 60th Anniversary Concert in January 2006.[24]
Honorary Doctor of Humane Letters degree from Baylor University, September 4, 2003, at the "Spirit Rally" for the Baylor and Central Texas communities.[25]
Honorary Doctor of Humane Letters degree from Yale University, May 26, 2003.[26]
Cosby received an Honorary Degree in 2003 presented by President William Harjo LoneFight from the Sisseton Wahpeton College on the Lake Traverse Reservation for his contributions to minority education.
Cosby received an Honorary Doctorate from West Chester University of Pennsylvania during the 2003 graduation ceremony.
Honorary Doctor of Humane Letters degree from Haverford College, May 2002.[27]
Cosby received Honorary Degrees from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute[14] and the University of Cincinnati in 2001.
Cosby received an Honorary Doctorate from Amherst College, May 1999. (Doctor of Humane Letters, honoris causa)
Honorary LL.D. from the University of Pennsylvania, 1990.[28] He also served as the commencement speaker in May 1997.[29]

Now those are some HIGH HONORS! I love Bill Cosby!

[Maximilian]

The criticisms here have not been aimed at Oneness Pentecostalism but a few individuals. Honestly I find this embarrassing to the Oneness movement and it makes it hard to be taken seriously on any academic or intellectual level to have teachings such as HMH and have individuals sporting PH.ds that are bogus or they did not earn.

Read the evidence...this is looking more and more like a MLM scheme than it is a legit place of Higher Learning. The UPCI needs to do something about this. They should make a by law stipulating that ministers can only claim PH.ds that are legit and they need to investigate what looks like has become a MLM for someone in the UPC where they get a friend to join then start a branch and call themselves professors

Well said.

[Praxeas]

So is the consensus that LS, did or did not know that his "degree" was phony? Of course he would know if he ever attended an actual school somewhere, either in England or the U. S. And is it legal for someone to claim to have a degree from somewhere that they don't have? Which would be fraud I guess. I am a little confused on just how he committed fraud if he didn't know the thing was fake, or did not use the title Dr. or PhD.
Having NOT gone to a real University and spend a good part of their life doing dissertations, I could possibly believe that they were naive enough to think the course work, if any, and the 2 page "dissertation" requirement were legit..maybe. But I have a hard time believing anyone is that naive. I haven't been to college in years and I never graduated let alone got a doctorate but I know about the process, especially the final one. You are essentially required to write a book. It gets reviewed by a board at the University and they are not paid to pass you.

It's not an easy task, let alone all the hours spent in classes learning qualifying topics from men that have already done all that. You don't get PHds in Theology for being able to say "I've been preaching the gospel for 30 years" nor for self studying basic topics, taking one test and writing a 2 page paper...you have to rack up hours in a class room.

This kinda reminds me of some of the conspiracy theorists. The so called experts. They write books quoting each other as experts. How do you become an expert? You have a buddy on a radio show quote you. Then you quote him back and he becomes an expert too

[Cindy]

Actually, Cosby earned an Ed.D. from the University of Massachusetts.

In addition, he has been honored the Presidential Medal of Freedom, "Man of the Year" award from Harvard, Bob Hope Humanitarian Award.... I couldn't find anything about honorary degrees for him, though he'd fit the perfect profile for such an honor.

EDIT: Nevermind. A quick Google search yielded these results:


Honorary Doctor of Humane Letters degree from Virginia Commonwealth University, December 5, 2008.[21]
Honorary Doctor of Humane Letters degree from Carnegie Mellon University, May 20, 2007; he was also the keynote speaker for the commencement ceremony.[22]
Honorary Doctor of Music degree from Berklee College of Music, May 8, 2004.[23] Cosby was also the host of the school's 60th Anniversary Concert in January 2006.[24]
Honorary Doctor of Humane Letters degree from Baylor University, September 4, 2003, at the "Spirit Rally" for the Baylor and Central Texas communities.[25]
Honorary Doctor of Humane Letters degree from Yale University, May 26, 2003.[26]
Cosby received an Honorary Degree in 2003 presented by President William Harjo LoneFight from the Sisseton Wahpeton College on the Lake Traverse Reservation for his contributions to minority education.
Cosby received an Honorary Doctorate from West Chester University of Pennsylvania during the 2003 graduation ceremony.
Honorary Doctor of Humane Letters degree from Haverford College, May 2002.[27]
Cosby received Honorary Degrees from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute[14] and the University of Cincinnati in 2001.
Cosby received an Honorary Doctorate from Amherst College, May 1999. (Doctor of Humane Letters, honoris causa)
Honorary LL.D. from the University of Pennsylvania, 1990.[28] He also served as the commencement speaker in May 1997.[29]

Now those are some HIGH HONORS! I love Bill Cosby!

:thumbsup

[Cindy]

Having NOT gone to a real University and spend a good part of their life doing dissertations, I could possibly believe that they were naive enough to think the course work, if any, and the 2 page "dissertation" requirement were legit..maybe. But I have a hard time believing anyone is that naive. I haven't been to college in years and I never graduated let alone got a doctorate but I know about the process, especially the final one. You are essentially required to write a book. It gets reviewed by a board at the University and they are not paid to pass you.

It's not an easy task, let alone all the hours spent in classes learning qualifying topics from men that have already done all that. You don't get PHds in Theology for being able to say "I've been preaching the gospel for 30 years" nor for self studying basic topics, taking one test and writing a 2 page paper...you have to rack up hours in a class room.

This kinda reminds me of some of the conspiracy theorists. The so called experts. They write books quoting each other as experts. How do you become an expert? You have a buddy on a radio show quote you. Then you quote him back and he becomes an expert too

Yeah, I often wonder about the "experts" that testify in court. I think some of them probably do not really qualify as an expert.

[Maximilian]

Having NOT gone to a real University and spend a good part of their life doing dissertations, I could possibly believe that they were naive enough to think the course work, if any, and the 2 page "dissertation" requirement were legit..maybe. But I have a hard time believing anyone is that naive. I haven't been to college in years and I never graduated let alone got a doctorate but I know about the process, especially the final one. You are essentially required to write a book. It gets reviewed by a board at the University and they are not paid to pass you.

It's not an easy task, let alone all the hours spent in classes learning qualifying topics from men that have already done all that. You don't get PHds in Theology for being able to say "I've been preaching the gospel for 30 years" nor for self studying basic topics, taking one test and writing a 2 page paper...you have to rack up hours in a class room.

This kinda reminds me of some of the conspiracy theorists. The so called experts. They write books quoting each other as experts. How do you become an expert? You have a buddy on a radio show quote you. Then you quote him back and he becomes an expert too

Exactly.

You don't worship with the board that reviews your Ph.D.

Extremely objective. The end-result? It's a high honor and a great accomplishment.

[pelathais]

Pretty sure they've had accredition with WASC for some time. Now, as I understand, their degree program is through Hope University.

I dunno. Going to the school directory at http://www.acswasc.org/directory_search.cfm.

I can't find Apostolic School of Theology nor Hope International.

Hope comes right out on their website claiming accreditation with the WASC. Following the links from Hope's website to the directory at WASC turns up nothing. They do not appear to be accredited with the Western Association any longer, if they were in the past.

Hope also links to the Association for Biblical Higher Education. The ABHE does NOT list them as "Accredited" but as "Programmatic."

"Programmatic" is defined as: http://www.abhe.org/accreditation

"Programmatic Accreditation- Review and recognition of particular programs within an institution that currently holds accreditation with another recognized accrediting body."

BUT... that "other recognized accrediting body" no longer lists Hope International.

Oh, what a wicked web we weave...

If anyone can provide some insight and help for me here, I'd really appreciate it. Just from the websites at the Apostolic School of Theology and Hope International - and following THEIR links to the respective accrediting bodies - These guys ain't accredited.

[Timmy]

I wonder where Dr. Jeff Young, Jr., got his M.D. He wrote the section entitled "Official Medical Report" on this page:

http://www.leestoneking.com/My%20Miracle.htm

[Maximilian]

I dunno. Going to the school directory at http://www.acswasc.org/directory_search.cfm.

I can't find Apostolic School of Theology nor Hope International.

Hope comes right out on their website claiming accreditation with the WASC. Following the links from Hope's website to the directory at WASC turns up nothing. They do not appear to be accredited with the Western Association any longer, if they were in the past.

Hope also links to the Association for Biblical Higher Education. The ABHE does NOT list them as "Accredited" but as "Programmatic."

"Programmatic" is defined as: http://www.abhe.org/accreditation

"Programmatic Accreditation- Review and recognition of particular programs within an institution that currently holds accreditation with another recognized accrediting body."

BUT... that "other recognized accrediting body" no longer lists Hope International.

Oh, what a wicked web we weave...

If anyone can provide some insight and help for me here, I'd really appreciate it. Just from the websites at the Apostolic School of Theology and Hope International - and following THEIR links to the respective accrediting bodies - These guys ain't accredited.

AMAZING!

Okay, I tried the link. I also put in schools I thought for sure would have accredition, and they aren't coming up. Maybe through a different accredition association? But if Hope explicitly says WASC, you'd think that was accurate. They could get in SERIOUS trouble for advertising with WASC if they aren't.

[Ferd]

ugh. that was exhausting.

I deserve a degree or something for having read the whole thread in one day!

[Maximilian]

Pel, maybe ACSI.org?

Hope claims accredition through http://www.cccu.org/ now. They said they were "previously" through WASC.

[Maximilian]

Affirmative: Hope's accredition is now through CCCU. I found them on the page.

Pel, I am positive that AST advertised as "fully accredited" prior to Hope. They used to print out publications with this information. They were very proud of it. I know they previously had an affiliation with Patten University in Oakland, so I'm thinking they did the same piggy-back deal with them.

[Maximilian]

Okay, correction: Hope also claims WASC accredition currently.

Hope International University holds regional accreditation with the Accrediting Commission for Senior Colleges and Universities of the Western Association of Schools and Colleges (WASC). The status of accreditation indicates that Hope meets WASC’s Accreditation Standards, demonstrates Core Commitments to Institutional Capacity and Educational Effectiveness, and devotes itself to periodic self-evaluation and ongoing institutional improvement. WASC is one of six regional associations that accredit public and private schools, colleges, and universities in the United States. The Western region covers institutions in California, Hawaii, Guam, and the Pacific Basin. The Association’s member institutions are recognized by the Department of Education, the Veteran’s Administration, and other relevant agencies in the United States.

[Maximilian]

Check them on here: http://www.wascsenior.org/directory/institutions

or here

http://www.wascsenior.org/formerlyaccredited

[ManOfWord]

And people wonder why credibility comes into question! This kind of stuff really ticks me off, because it is about integrity or the lack thereof, really! :D

[pelathais]

I wonder where Dr. Jeff Young, Jr., got his M.D. He wrote the section entitled "Official Medical Report" on this page:

http://www.leestoneking.com/My%20Miracle.htm

He is the son of the pastor Lee describes in that same page. The pastor is from TN (http://www.thespringsupc.com/). If Jeff Jr. is practicing medicine in the United States I am reasonably certain he's legit.

Reading Lee's testimony we can find him crediting the hard work of his care givers along with the "power of God." I don't see anything unreasonable here, but it does sort of come across in a funny way; to me at least. I don't blame the doctor or the EMT or any of the other care givers for that.

My own experience with a cardiologist who literally threw herself on me and wept, crying "it's a miracle" sort of informs my opinion as well. My "miracle" took a few years and lots of hard works and heavy doses of drugs. Yet the change was significant enough that she really wept and called it "a miracle."

[Praxeas]

But it's what I do. I have a Phd in psychoanalyzation.
From SEU... it was a bargain basement deal. He only paid $29.95 and only had to watch 2 episodes of Oprah and 3 episodes of Dr. Phil :ursofunny

[pelathais]

AMAZING!

Okay, I tried the link. I also put in schools I thought for sure would have accredition, and they aren't coming up. Maybe through a different accredition association? But if Hope explicitly says WASC, you'd think that was accurate. They could get in SERIOUS trouble for advertising with WASC if they aren't.

Okay, correction: Hope also claims WASC accredition currently.

Hope International University holds regional accreditation with the Accrediting Commission for Senior Colleges and Universities of the Western Association of Schools and Colleges (WASC). The status of accreditation indicates that Hope meets WASC’s Accreditation Standards, demonstrates Core Commitments to Institutional Capacity and Educational Effectiveness, and devotes itself to periodic self-evaluation and ongoing institutional improvement. WASC is one of six regional associations that accredit public and private schools, colleges, and universities in the United States. The Western region covers institutions in California, Hawaii, Guam, and the Pacific Basin. The Association’s member institutions are recognized by the Department of Education, the Veteran’s Administration, and other relevant agencies in the United States.

Check them on here: http://www.wascsenior.org/directory/institutions

or here

http://www.wascsenior.org/formerlyaccredited

What's the difference between the two WASC orgs? Or are they the same org with two different websites? Gonna look at that.

Thanks for the tip Max.

Would it be fair to say that the Apostolic School of Theology has it's accreditation "piggy-back" fashion through Hope Int'l - who has their accreditation "piggy-back fashion" through CCCU?

Someone mentioned multilevel marketing... whew!

[Timmy]

He is the son of the pastor Lee describes in that same page. The pastor is from TN (http://www.thespringsupc.com/). If Jeff Jr. is practicing medicine in the United States I am reasonably certain he's legit.

Reading Lee's testimony we can find him crediting the hard work of his care givers along with the "power of God." I don't see anything unreasonable here, but it does sort of come across in a funny way; to me at least. I don't blame the doctor or the EMT or any of the other care givers for that.

. . .

Mostly funny, yeah. But I don't think this is funny:

There were clots and the doctor's advice was, "We have to cut him open immediately to even try to save his life." Pastor Slack and those with him said, 'No, we'll pray." And they prayed... they took another set of pictures of my heart and the clots and blockages had disappeared!!! They did not cut me open.

I hope nobody follows this pastor's example in an emergency situation. If you want to pray, pray in the waiting room and don't interfere.

[Praxeas]

I wonder just how many licensed UPCi minsters have degrees from "degree-mills"?
Me too and how many of them went there because a friend told them how easy it was...gave them an MLM pitch

[James Griffin]

Please note Theology (as opposed to Law, History, etc) is in a class by itself. There is no regional accreditation for a pure theology degree. The highest standard is Association of Theological Schools http://www.ats.edu/Pages/default.aspx. There are several other layers below that.

The point being a majority of “religious” degrees are not from regionally accredited programs. But just because a school is not accredited does NOT make them a diploma mill.

[mental]

Affirmative: Hope's accredition is now through CCCU. I found them on the page.

Pel, I am positive that AST advertised as "fully accredited" prior to Hope. They used to print out publications with this information. They were very proud of it. I know they previously had an affiliation with Patten University in Oakland, so I'm thinking they did the same piggy-back deal with them.

AST was accredited through another school before Hope. I can't remember the name of the school. My understanding (which is very limited) is that an AST degree is really a Hope degree. They must be acting as some sort of virtual satellite to Hope. I believe they are legitimate.

[Knight]

Hello all

Upon receiving this surprising information regarding these profound allegations concerning SEU and ICW I have decided that it is needful to sever ties with such institutions. I received Honorary PhD recognition through SEU through an interested contact and had no idea of its controversies. Although I transferred credits and enrolled in ICW and after many years graduated through distance learning, due to the surprised surrounding controversies, I have decided to sever all connection.
It is right to operate under high ethical standards, and I greatly apologize for any damage this has caused. I want my ministry to be one of humility and meekness. Know that I am working diligently to update my websites and info.

Regards, appreciate your prayers

[Cindy]

Hello all

Upon receiving this surprising information regarding these profound allegations concerning SEU and ICW I have decided that it is needful to sever ties with such institutions. I received Honorary PhD recognition through SEU through an interested contact and had no idea of its controversies. Although I transferred credits and enrolled in ICW and after many years graduated through distance learning, due to the surprised surrounding controversies, I have decided to sever all connection.
It is right to operate under high ethical standards, and I greatly apologize for any damage this has caused. I want my ministry to be one of humility and meekness. Know that I am working diligently to update my websites and info.

Regards, appreciate your prayers

Will be praying for you. May God bless you.

[Encryptus]

Hello all

Upon receiving this surprising information regarding these profound allegations concerning SEU and ICW I have decided that it is needful to sever ties with such institutions. I received Honorary PhD recognition through SEU through an interested contact and had no idea of its controversies. Although I transferred credits and enrolled in ICW and after many years graduated through distance learning, due to the surprised surrounding controversies, I have decided to sever all connection.
It is right to operate under high ethical standards, and I greatly apologize for any damage this has caused. I want my ministry to be one of humility and meekness. Know that I am working diligently to update my websites and info.

Regards, appreciate your prayers

Extremely gracious and well spoken. And your ties with your English "lawyer" who was taking "legal action" ?

[rgcraig]

Wonderful news Knight!

Thank you for taking the time to let us know.

[pelathais]

Mostly funny, yeah. But I don't think this is funny:

There were clots and the doctor's advice was, "We have to cut him open immediately to even try to save his life." Pastor Slack and those with him said, 'No, we'll pray." And they prayed... they took another set of pictures of my heart and the clots and blockages had disappeared!!! They did not cut me open.

I hope nobody follows this pastor's example in an emergency situation. If you want to pray, pray in the waiting room and don't interfere.

I know that those Aussies are an informal bunch - but I have a hard time picturing the surgeons standing there with their huge Crocodile Dundee bush knives in hand and getting ready to gut poor Lee with "Pastor Slack" in the operating theater as well, when the good pastor saves our suffering protagonist from the Fosters drinking slashers.

[MrMasterMind]

Just curious has anyone checked Stoneking's website in the last five minutes to see if he is of the same opinion?

[Hoovie]

Hello all

Upon receiving this surprising information regarding these profound allegations concerning SEU and ICW I have decided that it is needful to sever ties with such institutions. I received Honorary PhD recognition through SEU through an interested contact and had no idea of its controversies. Although I transferred credits and enrolled in ICW and after many years graduated through distance learning, due to the surprised surrounding controversies, I have decided to sever all connection.
It is right to operate under high ethical standards, and I greatly apologize for any damage this has caused. I want my ministry to be one of humility and meekness. Know that I am working diligently to update my websites and info.

Regards, appreciate your prayers


Knight, You certainly have my prayers. While this post is astounding, your stature and integrity immediately benefit in the eyes of myself and others who do not know you outside of this recent thread. I am sure the same is true of your peers and those who otherwise know you.

[rgcraig]

Just curious has anyone checked Stoneking's website in the last five minutes to see if he is of the same opinion?

Still the same.

[Knight]

Encryptus

When demanding answers of SEU those were their boxed responses.. All I know or care to know..

[DAII]

Hello all

Upon receiving this surprising information regarding these profound allegations concerning SEU and ICW I have decided that it is needful to sever ties with such institutions. I received Honorary PhD recognition through SEU through an interested contact and had no idea of its controversies. Although I transferred credits and enrolled in ICW and after many years graduated through distance learning, due to the surprised surrounding controversies, I have decided to sever all connection.
It is right to operate under high ethical standards, and I greatly apologize for any damage this has caused. I want my ministry to be one of humility and meekness. Know that I am working diligently to update my websites and info.

Regards, appreciate your prayers

Knight,

I believe you have exercised great wisdom in this decision. I firmly believe that the plan and desire you have laid out, when executed, is the best course of action.

We appreciate the spirit and graciousness of this post.

Please pray for us as well.

God's continued favor and blessing.

In His and your service.

[pelathais]

Just curious has anyone checked Stoneking's website in the last five minutes to see if he is of the same opinion?

First thing I did. And no, not yet. But I think he will.

And congrats Knight. This is a wise decision.

[MissBrattified]

Hello all

Upon receiving this surprising information regarding these profound allegations concerning SEU and ICW I have decided that it is needful to sever ties with such institutions. I received Honorary PhD recognition through SEU through an interested contact and had no idea of its controversies. Although I transferred credits and enrolled in ICW and after many years graduated through distance learning, due to the surprised surrounding controversies, I have decided to sever all connection.
It is right to operate under high ethical standards, and I greatly apologize for any damage this has caused. I want my ministry to be one of humility and meekness. Know that I am working diligently to update my websites and info.

Regards, appreciate your prayers

Knight,

This post is an admirable, gracious response, and the action you plan to take sounds prudent.

I have to say that I really appreciate the humility in this post. It's refreshing.

God bless you.

[DAII]

Knight,

This post is an admirable, gracious response, and the action you plan to take sounds prudent.

I have to say that I really appreciate the humility in this post. It's refreshing.

God bless you.

Changes are starting to show on Art Wilson's pages.

Much respect and props to Pastor Art.

[pelathais]

From SEU... it was a bargain basement deal. He only paid $29.95 and only had to watch 2 episodes of Oprah and 3 episodes of Dr. Phil :ursofunny

In the state of Washington, a "Doctors of Philosophy" from ICW is required to be called a "Dr. Phil." according to their website... http://www.icwseminary.org/dcphil_requirements-wa.htm





... or a "D.C.Phil" I guess. First time I read it as "Dr. Phil" and busted out laughing.

[Cindy]

Advice I received from a man I love and respect: Do the right thing, anyway!! And that is not always easy.

[DAII]

In the state of Washington, a "Doctors of Philosophy" from ICW is required to be called a "Dr. Phil." according to their website... http://www.icwseminary.org/dcphil_requirements-wa.htm





... or a "D.C.Phil" I guess. First time I read it as "Dr. Phil" and busted out laughing.

South Carolina.

[Maximilian]

Please note Theology (as opposed to Law, History, etc) is in a class by itself. There is no regional accreditation for a pure theology degree. The highest standard is Association of Theological Schools http://www.ats.edu/Pages/default.aspx. There are several other layers below that.

The point being a majority of “religious” degrees are not from regionally accredited programs. But just because a school is not accredited does NOT make them a diploma mill.

Most reputable theological schools have accredition. Period.

[MrMasterMind]

Knight I appreciate the post, however, you seemed to have totally ignored Encryptus' question.

What about your "lawyer" friend who was going to take "legal action?"

[Maximilian]

AST was accredited through another school before Hope. I can't remember the name of the school. My understanding (which is very limited) is that an AST degree is really a Hope degree. They must be acting as some sort of virtual satellite to Hope. I believe they are legitimate.

That is my understanding as well.

I'm not sure on the rigor of their curriculum, but that's an issue with accredited schools as well. I believe the school before Hope that they piggy-backed on was Patten University in Oakland, CA. It's a Pentecostal college.

[DAII]

As a member of Pastor Wilson's church, I would imagine Kal would follow his pastor's example.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Does anyone else not see an interesting correlation here?

Religiously: clean up the outside, make yourself presentable to others- do not talk about what might be going on in your heart or your personal life because then you are "unspiritual"- At least that's what my former experience was. Is it so far a leap to think that someone who is taught to dress and act the part, would see a huge problem with claiming a degree to look better?

Maybe I am reaching here, I probably am, but there it seems that once you become good at pretending to be religious on the outside, the "props" just seems to come easier as well...
Just a thought.
As long as something "looks good', reality doesn't matter?

Great point.

[Maximilian]

As a member of Pastor Wilson's church, I would imagine Kal would follow his pastor's example.

Who is "Kal?"

[DAII]

Update:

Pastor Wilson has updated his header at artwilson.com from Professor to Pastor

The bio page on the church site is under construction: http://www.theinternationalchurch.org/staff.php?staffID=14006&

The bio at artwilson.com is yet to be edited.

Of course, he would have to wait on the webmaster at the Institute to make any changes.

[Baron1710]

Interesting. I never knew this. I don't know the point in the second image though? Explain.

As a member of Pastor Wilson's church, I would imagine Kal would follow his pastor's example.

Pastor Wilson that was a gutsy post on your part. I too would like to hear from Kal since he took the time to call and pretend he was with the DC bar and inquiring about allegations on ethical misconduct.

[rabbiriley]

In regards to UGST's accreditation, when I was there a few weeks ago as a student, they were saying final accreditation is all but a formality. I am eagerly awaiting a final e-mail and was encouraged to hear of yesterday's news! (though in my state of doubt in regards to all of humanity, I would not be surprised if it doesn't happen)...

As for me, UGST's accreditation has been sufficient as is. I have been receiving financial aid from the government and get to differ my undergrad student loans.


Lastly, as a private reader of this whole thread, I am in humble awe right now of knight's turn. This is encouraging. More respect now than had this thread never happened. Great example.

[Maximilian]

In regards to UGST's accreditation, when I was there a few weeks ago as a student, they were saying final accreditation is all but a formality. I am eagerly awaiting a final e-mail and was encouraged to hear of yesterday's news! (though in my state of doubt in regards to all of humanity, I would not be surprised if it doesn't happen)...

As for me, UGST's accreditation has been sufficient as is. I have been receiving financial aid from the government and get to differ my undergrad student loans.


Lastly, as a private reader of this whole thread, I am in humble awe right now of knight's turn. This is encouraging. More respect now than had this thread never happened. Great example.

Thanks for chiming in on that, Riley! :thumbsup

[pelathais]

South Carolina.

Washington.

[Charnock]

There is no doubt about it. UGST is now fully accredited.

DKB sent out an email to the constituency, this morning, confirming it.

[DAII]

In regards to UGST's accreditation, when I was there a few weeks ago as a student, they were saying final accreditation is all but a formality. I am eagerly awaiting a final e-mail and was encouraged to hear of yesterday's news! (though in my state of doubt in regards to all of humanity, I would not be surprised if it doesn't happen)...

As for me, UGST's accreditation has been sufficient as is. I have been receiving financial aid from the government and get to differ my undergrad student loans.


Lastly, as a private reader of this whole thread, I am in humble awe right now of knight's turn. This is encouraging. More respect now than had this thread never happened. Great example.
Welcome to the tribe called AFF. :thumbsup

[DAII]

Update:

Pastor Wilson has updated his header at artwilson.com from Professor to Pastor

The bio page on the church site is under construction: http://www.theinternationalchurch.org/staff.php?staffID=14006&

The bio at artwilson.com is yet to be edited.

Of course, he would have to wait on the webmaster at the Institute to make any changes.

About page bio now edited.

[Maximilian]

Hello all

Upon receiving this surprising information regarding these profound allegations concerning SEU and ICW I have decided that it is needful to sever ties with such institutions. I received Honorary PhD recognition through SEU through an interested contact and had no idea of its controversies. Although I transferred credits and enrolled in ICW and after many years graduated through distance learning, due to the surprised surrounding controversies, I have decided to sever all connection.
It is right to operate under high ethical standards, and I greatly apologize for any damage this has caused. I want my ministry to be one of humility and meekness. Know that I am working diligently to update my websites and info.

Regards, appreciate your prayers


:scoregood

Bravo to this. Beautiful.

[Ferd]

For those who have contributed to this thread, you all should get comendations.

For those of us who have read it, we should all get purple hearts.

[Maximilian]

There is no doubt about it. UGST is now fully accredited.

DKB sent out an email to the constituency, this morning, confirming it.

Told ya! :)

Thanks, Charnock!

[DAII]

For those who have contributed to this thread, you all should get comendations.

For those of us who have read it, we should all get purple hearts.

Now that is funny. :ursofunny

[DAII]

Knight, your kids are beautiful ... they definitely favor their mom :)

[pelathais]

There is no doubt about it. UGST is now fully accredited.

DKB sent out an email to the constituency, this morning, confirming it.

PM me a copy of the email or better yet - post it here. I think this is great news.

[DAII]

PM me a copy of the email or better yet - post it here. I think this is great news.

Fantastic news. Kudos to UGST and the tireless effort of Bishop Bernard.

[Charnock]

www.ugst.org

UGST is fully accredited!

Posted 07/06/2010 04:54PM

UGST is the only Apostolic Pentecostal graduate institution in North America to have accreditation. As such, it is the only one listed by the U.S. Department of Education (DOE) and the only one to award its own accredited master’s degrees. (See http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/ Search.aspx)

[Charnock]

"Urshan Graduate School of Theology has received full accreditation from the Association of Theological Schools (ATS) for the maximum initial period of five years. ATS is the premier accrediting agency for graduate theological education recognized by the U.S. Government. Its accreditation is equal to that of the secular regional accrediting associations. Some schools offer credits through a contractual arrangement with secular or trinitarian colleges that are accredited, but do not have their own accreditation."

from www.ugst.org

[DAII]

www.ugst.org

UGST is fully accredited!

Posted 07/06/2010 04:54PM

UGST is the only Apostolic Pentecostal graduate institution in North America to have accreditation. As such, it is the only one listed by the U.S. Department of Education (DOE) and the only one to award its own accredited master’s degrees. (See http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/ Search.aspx)

Deserves its own thread.

[Ferd]

It is far more easy to get a degree from Ferdinandia University... which already has its own thread.

[Charnock]

http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/InstAccrDetails.aspx?756e697469643d323039353333266 3616d70757349643d30267264743d372f372f3230313020343 a33393a333920504d

Click on this link for primary proof.

[DAII]

http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/InstAccrDetails.aspx?756e697469643d323039353333266 3616d70757349643d30267264743d372f372f3230313020343 a33393a333920504d

Click on this link for primary proof.
We don't need proof around here ... do we?
:bliss

[MrMasterMind]

Pastor Wilson that was a gutsy post on your part. I too would like to hear from Kal since he took the time to call and pretend he was with the DC bar and inquiring about allegations on ethical misconduct.

Don't hold your breath Baron, I doubt you will ever get your well deserved apology. They are not quite that gentlemanly. Great show of "I was duped" however.

I am sorry you went through that, and glad you were vindicated.

[pelathais]

www.ugst.org

UGST is fully accredited!

Posted 07/06/2010 04:54PM

UGST is the only Apostolic Pentecostal graduate institution in North America to have accreditation. As such, it is the only one listed by the U.S. Department of Education (DOE) and the only one to award its own accredited master’s degrees. (See http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/ Search.aspx)

"Some schools offer credits through a contractual arrangement with secular or trinitarian colleges that are accredited, but do not have their own accreditation."

Anyone come to mind here?

Way to be UGST! Congrats on all of the hard work paying off.

[DAII]

Don't hold your breath Baron, I doubt you will ever get your well deserved apology. They are not quite that gentlemanly. Great show of "I was duped" however.

I am sorry you went through that, and glad you were vindicated.

Definitely a lot of merit and truth in this post.

Long live, the Baron.

[Maximilian]

www.ugst.org

UGST is fully accredited!

Posted 07/06/2010 04:54PM

UGST is the only Apostolic Pentecostal graduate institution in North America to have accreditation. As such, it is the only one listed by the U.S. Department of Education (DOE) and the only one to award its own accredited master’s degrees. (See http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/ Search.aspx)

Would AST agree? They've been using the exclusive language for years now. And, via Hope, now have graduate level coursework.

[Maximilian]

"Urshan Graduate School of Theology has received full accreditation from the Association of Theological Schools (ATS) for the maximum initial period of five years. ATS is the premier accrediting agency for graduate theological education recognized by the U.S. Government. Its accreditation is equal to that of the secular regional accrediting associations. Some schools offer credits through a contractual arrangement with secular or trinitarian colleges that are accredited, but do not have their own accreditation."
from www.ugst.org

:thumbsup

Definitely something to celebrate. A milestone of sorts.

All related to the Apostolic Pentecostal complex with education. This is a progressive step for sure.

[Maximilian]

We don't need proof around here ... do we?
:bliss

Of course we do :)

http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/SearchResult.aspx?6d6f64653d5365617263684279496e73 7469747574696f6e267264743d372f372f3230313020343a34 363a333020504d

[James Griffin]

:thumbsup

Definitely something to celebrate. A milestone of sorts.

All related to the Apostolic Pentecostal complex with education. This is a progressive step for sure.

I was beginning to despair I would ever see it in my lifetime.

About 40 or more years overdue.

[Maximilian]

"Some schools offer credits through a contractual arrangement with secular or trinitarian colleges that are accredited, but do not have their own accreditation."

Anyone come to mind here?

Way to be UGST! Congrats on all of the hard work paying off.

Definitely a swipe at AST! :ursofunny

It is definitely unique that they have merited and earned their own accredition. Those shared models make allowance for brother and sister so-and-so to teach this class or that. It's very ACE-oriented! :)

[DAII]

I was beginning to despair I would ever see it in my lifetime.

About 40 or more years overdue.

This is like the Red Sox, Cubs or Mets .... or even the Tigers winning the World Series ... I agree.

Yankee baseball, baby!!!!!


http://bobbydread.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/yankees1.jpg

[Maximilian]

Congrats UGST. I agree Dan, worthy of a separate thread (though quite related to the discussion as well)

[Knight]

MrMasterMind, Barron

Was not aware of those things, will look into it..

[Maximilian]

This is like the Red Sox, Cubs or Mets .... or even the Tigers winning the World Series ... I agree.

Yankee baseball, baby!!!!!


http://bobbydread.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/yankees1.jpg

:cubs

No really. Hate the Cubs too.

[Ferd]

somebody please make that picture go away!

[Baron1710]

somebody please make that picture go away!

ferd have your wife lay her hair over the screen...and chant SEU SEU

[DAII]

somebody please make that picture go away!

Shall I post it again.????

[Ferd]

Shall I post it again.????

Dude, it has fried my screen! Its too large and its messing everything up!

[rgcraig]

Has anyone updated AMF - I'm sure they are disappointed.

[pelathais]

Has anyone updated AMF - I'm sure they are disappointed.

Yeah. I'm logging in there now. Should I post the thread over here?

[DAII]

MrMasterMind, Barron

Was not aware of those things, will look into it..

Please look into this grievous matter ....

Baron deserves an apology.

[DAII]

Yeah. I'm logging in there now. Should I post the thread over here?

Their pom-poms are reversible to sackcloth and ash

:party:party

[Ferd]

Has anyone confirmed the existance of the alleged law degree's.... from some other country...

[DAII]

Has anyone confirmed the existance of the alleged law degree's.... from some other country...

I think someone should make a call ... most schools verify

[James Griffin]

Has anyone confirmed the existance of the alleged law degree's.... from some other country...

Ferd it is possible in some cases to practice law in England without a law degree. From the looks of his bio it looks like he took that route.

[DAII]

Ferd it is possible in some cases to practice law in England without a law degree. From the looks of his bio it looks like he took that route.

The alleged purchase made through the Spokane diploma mill could be any of the those degrees listed .... or multiple ones.

The question still lies in capitalizing on such a degree for employment and to pad one's vitae.

[Timmy]

This thread was started 5 days ago, and it has over 8500 views. That has to be a new record!

[DAII]

This thread was started 5 days ago, and it has over 8500 views. That has to be a new record!

Historic thread ... for sure ...

Had you not picked up on Southern Eastern and Justin not attended the PWC ... not sure this thread happens.

[Timmy]

Everyone smile! We have an audience!

:D

[Baron1710]

MrMasterMind, Barron

Was not aware of those things, will look into it..

Will be waiting...appreciate it.

[TheLegalist]

This is PATHETIC! Taking honor for something you did not earn. God... I thought you just handed out eternal life without sacrifice....

No... not like your degree!

[notofworks]

Mostly funny, yeah. But I don't think this is funny:

There were clots and the doctor's advice was, "We have to cut him open immediately to even try to save his life." Pastor Slack and those with him said, 'No, we'll pray." And they prayed... they took another set of pictures of my heart and the clots and blockages had disappeared!!! They did not cut me open.

I hope nobody follows this pastor's example in an emergency situation. If you want to pray, pray in the waiting room and don't interfere.


In light of all the obvious dishonesty, it's fairly natural, I would say, to have difficulty with the story.

[Ferd]

Ferd it is possible in some cases to practice law in England without a law degree. From the looks of his bio it looks like he took that route.

i would key in on the word "practice"

are we even sure there has been a real "Practice"?

[pelathais]

This is PATHETIC! Taking honor for something you did not earn. God... I thought you just handed out eternal life without sacrifice....

No... not like your degree!

This seems to be the lament of someone who has not yet earned a degree in theology.

[Ferd]

I am wondering if the law degree is akin to the English Constitution?

[DAII]

This seems to be the lament of someone who has not yet earned a degree in theology.
If any at all.

But we let him hang.

[Ferd]

This seems to be the lament of someone who has not yet earned a degree in theology.

I am working on a degree in child rearing.

I understand the course will be complete about the time my youngest is grown?

[Ferd]

This is PATHETIC! Taking honor for something you did not earn. God... I thought you just handed out eternal life without sacrifice....

No... not like your degree!

As a firm believer in the Water/Spirit Doctrine, I appreciate the contortion you just put yourself thru to make this point....


However, it hurts me to watch you do that to yourself.

[notofworks]

Changes are starting to show on Art Wilson's pages.

Much respect and props to Pastor Art.


Am I an idiot or am I missing something or am I the only one that doesn't see the "Honor" here? His statement said, "Upon receiving this surprising information regarding these profound allegations.......".

"Upon receiving"????? Again, I'm catching up and I'll leave the space that I'm wrong, but he's just now receiving this "SURPRISING" information? These people received a degree without doing anything for it and they're "SURPRISED" it's not legit???? Seriously? Am I missing something?

He comes on here claiming to be a British Lawyer, retracts, claims to host a conference...all kinds of stuff, and now he's receiving "surprising information"?? I guess I need to read more.

If I see where I'm missing something, I'll grovel and retract.

[Elizabeth]

As a firm believer in the Water/Spirit Doctrine, I appreciate the contortion you just put yourself thru to make this point....


However, it hurts me to watch you do that to yourself.

:ursofunny

[DAII]

Am I an idiot or am I missing something or am I the only one that doesn't see the "Honor" here? His statement said, "Upon receiving this surprising information regarding these profound allegations.......".

"Upon receiving"????? Again, I'm catching up and I'll leave the space that I'm wrong, but he's just now receiving this "SURPRISING" information? These people received a degree without doing anything for it and they're "SURPRISED" it's not legit???? Seriously? Am I missing something?

He comes on here claiming to be a British Lawyer, retracts, claims to host a conference...all kinds of stuff, and now he's receiving "surprising information"?? I guess I need to read more.

If I see where I'm missing something, I'll grovel and retract.
Don't think respect and honor are synonymous :)

[TheLegalist]

So salvation to a covenant person comes without sacrifice?

[DAII]

So salvation to a covenant person comes without sacrifice?
You're the oddball, here ... you know that right.
:neener

[DAII]

Wow 27 viewing this thread.

[TheLegalist]

You do realize I really don't care what you think... right? Interesting that you just negated true repentance. Nice!

[notofworks]

MrMasterMind, Barron

Was not aware of those things, will look into it..

Very hard to believe. The intimidation and threat tactics that have been used against Baron, that a number of us can witness from email and phone discussions off-line, do not match up with a sudden retraction when "Surprising information" suddenly showed up.

I keep reading this, and saying "Hogwash"....or something similar to that word.