SEU (Southern Eastern University) updates

[jfrog]

John only asked me for a name. Not a phone number or "contact" info. I think he will verify this as well.

Okay. That clears things up a little, but still why refuse the name?

[JN Anderson]

Okay. That clears things up a little, but still why refuse the name?

I was asked not too. I thought he was going to handle it himself.

[JN Anderson]

Before this I might actually have considered it.

MMM, there is no way I truly know you or anyone else on this forum simply by reading the posts. I can gather some information but not alot. I would enjoy speaking or meeting with you.

[MrMasterMind]

I was asked not too. I thought he was going to handle it himself.

So you called Baron and asked him if was ok to give out his cell number first?

Get a bigger shovel.

[pelathais]

Giving a personal cellphone number? And then not telling that party to whom your were giving it?

Fact- you thought your "friend" the "lawyer" was going to set the record straight and get the ones responsible for besmirching the reputation of LS and others. Your- gee who would have thought, is almost as disingenuous as - gee I didn't know my honorary degree was bogus trying to pass as a heartfelt apology.

It all blew up in your face, ready to stick to what you said yesterday and go back to writing Apologetics?

I wish JN Anderson would realize that he could have real friends here. We do get scrappy but it's because of the passion we feel for our God and for the cause that we've been called to defend.

We're not the type to puff our credentials. We don't tell people that we're "lawyers from the Bar Association" and try to bully them into silence. We don't pretend evidence exists for things that clearly never happened in human history. We don't burden anyone with non-Biblical edicts and the commandments of men.

We're not perfect, but we don't try and sell ourselves off as if we were.

Our one glaring fault appears to be a desire to understand the truth of a matter. Personally, I'll wear that "fault" as a badge of honor.

If someone makes a public claim about angels or the parchment on their walls - then we have the right - NO! - we have the duty to look into it. To do less would be to fail not only ourselves, but those who have gone before us.

[JN Anderson]

So you called Baron and asked him if was ok to give out his cell number first?

Get a bigger shovel.

Obviously I didn't MMM. That was partly why he was upset

[MrMasterMind]

MMM, there is no way I truly know you or anyone else on this forum simply by reading the posts. I can gather some information but not alot. I would enjoy speaking or meeting with you.

Sir, integrity and/or lack thereof can easily be gleaned from posts such as these

[rgcraig]

I wish JN Anderson would realize that he could have real friends here. We do get scrappy but it's because of the passion we feel for our God and for the cause that we've been called to defend.

We're not the type to puff our credentials. We don't tell people that we're "lawyers from the Bar Association" and try to bully them into silence. We don't pretend evidence exists for things that clearly never happened in human history. We don't burden anyone with non-Biblical edicts and the commandments of men.

We're not perfect, but we don't try and sell ourselves off as if we were.

Our one glaring fault appears to be a desire to understand the truth of a matter. Personally, I'll wear that "fault" as a badge of honor.

If someone makes a public claim about angels or the parchment on their walls - then we have the right - NO! - we have the duty to look into it. To do less would be to fail not only ourselves, but those who have gone before us.

I agree Pel......

[jfrog]

I was asked not too. I thought he was going to handle it himself.

Sounds legit to me.

One other question: Did Baron tell you what had happened when he was requesting the name? And if he did what did you do about it?

[rgcraig]

MMM, there is no way I truly know you or anyone else on this forum simply by reading the posts. I can gather some information but not alot. I would enjoy speaking or meeting with you.

Yet, you can call me a hypocrite when I've done nothing.

I think we caught you at a frustrated moment, was that it?

[JN Anderson]

Sounds legit to me.

One other question: Did Baron tell you what had happened when he was requesting the name? And if he did what did you do about it?

I think the "bar" call came while John was riding the metro. If my memory is correct, and John can verify, I spoke with him prior to getting on the metro.

[JN Anderson]

Yet, you can call me a hypocrite when I've done nothing.

I think we caught you at a frustrated moment, was that it?

I have been very frustrated, yes.

[Timmy]

I am not sure if this is what some of you are tacitly trying to get across or no but I did give John's phone number to KB. I would probably do it again. I would do it for John too if KB was on here going through his credentials. If you want to dig into these types of issues about people's lives then you shouldn't have any problem with them being able to contact you. After all, it is the truth we want right? :)
Since you brought it up JN.

You refused to tell me who you gave the number to. Not only would you not give me his name you would not give me any contact info. You said this was because "He asked you not to." So don't come on here and pretend you have been upright and honest in this.
My purpose was to put the two together on the phone. KB said he was going to call. I told John the same day as well. I wasnt' giving it to KB to "go get dirt" but to call John and get the situation straight. Its a mess and its absurd.

I am sorry and I apologize for what happened after I gave the number. I felt it was a good thing to do instead of taking shots at each other over a forum.

Quotes without comment. (Boldings, yes. Comment, no. ;))

[*AQuietPlace*]

I think this degree mill is organized and is a scheme to collect money for worthless paper. Again, I think it is a gambit, or a ring of degree mills.
So why aren't you thankful that it's been exposed? That's really what this thread was about. It is titled 'SEU'..... that's the focus of the thread.

[jfrog]

I think the "bar" call came while John was riding the metro. If my memory is correct, and John can verify, I spoke with him prior to getting on the metro.

Ohhhhh. So the person you gave his number to hadn't yet called when you were talking to him about giving his number out?

[JN Anderson]

Ohhhhh. So the person you gave his number to hadn't yet called when you were talking to him about giving his number out?

I think so.

[jfrog]

I think so.

I think that explanation settles things for me. :thumbsup

[rgcraig]

I have been very frustrated, yes.

Just a note of reference.

Callling someone a hypocrite has been reason enough to ban members.

I'm not banning you at this time because I think you need to be here - perhaps you'll understand in time that we're not against you.

You can pm me the reason why you think I'm a hypocrite.

[jfrog]

John only asked me for a name. Not a phone number or "contact" info. I think he will verify this as well.

Timmy brought this to my attention with his last post and I had to ask about it.

Since you brought it up JN.

You refused to tell me who you gave the number to. Not only would you not give me his name you would not give me any contact info. You said this was because "He asked you not to." So don't come on here and pretend you have been upright and honest in this.

Baron said he asked for more than a name?

EDIT: ...It seems to me that if you wanted them to just talk then upon Barons request you would have given the number to Baron?

[JN Anderson]

I think that explanation settles things for me. :thumbsup

I told John that I had given the number out and he told me he felt betrayed. I told him that was not my intent. I honestly felt it was the right thing to do given the gravity of this thread. You will probably disagree I know.

[JN Anderson]

Timmy brought this to my attention with his last post.



Baron said he asked for more than a name?

He could have asked for that but I do not remember. If he will contact me I will provide him with whatever contact info I have. It would only be fair at this point.

[JN Anderson]

Just a note of reference.

Callling someone a hypocrite has been reason enough to ban members.

I'm not banning you at this time because I think you need to be here - perhaps you'll understand in time that we're not against you.

You can pm me the reason why you think I'm a hypocrite.

Renda, I am sorry for calling you a hypocrite. I do feel like this forum can take on a persona though that facilitates truth. In my opinion, I feel it has also been destructive. I am sure we would disagree on why that is because we would disagree over holiness issues. I love Oneness Pentecostalism with all its faults. I love Truth. I know you do too.

[jfrog]

I told John that I had given the number out and he told me he felt betrayed. I told him that was not my intent. I honestly felt it was the right thing to do given the gravity of this thread. You will probably disagree I know.

That's a solid explanation for that part! :thumbsup

[rgcraig]

Renda, I am sorry for calling you a hypocrite. I do feel like this forum can take on a persona though that facilitates truth. In my opinion, I feel it has also been destructive. I am sure we would disagree on why that is because we would disagree over holiness issues. I love Oneness Pentecostalism with all its faults. I love Truth. I know you do too.

Okay, and yes, I do love Truth and truth.

I couldn't agree with you more about the bolded statement.

[jfrog]

He could have asked for that but I do not remember. If he will contact me I will provide him with whatever contact info I have. It would only be fair at this point.

That would appear to be the right thing to do! :thumbsup

I suppose I can understand why you would be reluctant to give out a friends contact info who had explicitly asked you not to and especially when nothing major had happened at the time you were first asked for it.

[Maximilian]

This is the first time I've seen some of your claws! Scary! :)

JN, I appreciate you coming on here attempting to clear things up, with your photo and ID public. Through frustration, you set people off with some things, but it seems you apologized and it's not for AFF to accept, but for Baron.

You seem to believe the forum is dangerous, can get ugly, etc. and I'd say that it has that potential. But I think that's outweighed by the beautiful, articulate and heart-felt discussions that happen on AFF. It's imperfect people for sure. I don't think you will find a better group elsewhere. The difference is that some air it out even uglier about others in private -- and just for the sake of tearing down opponents. FYI LS and Oneness Pentecostals are not the only ones falling for this wannabe scholar business. Many charismatics are as well. But since we are all coming from a Oneness Pentecostal perspective, we do find it curious that exaggerated, often-shady citing of educational credentials is something of a Oneness Pentecostal phenom. Some on AFF that are very conservative with Water-Spirit doctrine, pro-UPC, etc have said the same and are upset about it. They want the group to buck up, have some integrity and character and to get their motives right. It does a disservice to those trying hard to not only earn legit degrees, but actually learn.

LS happens to be a huge targer because he has caused division over a non-Biblical doctrine. He has threatened his opposers, not with love, but with judgement and phony prophecy. (I've even heard he some more wild things he does than that... thinking "death list" for example, but I'll leave that alone for now). Throwing himself in the spotlight like that, posturing as a scholar, citing not only his prophetic skills as an elitist but also his ability to be a scholar, he deserves some academic scrutiny. What was discovered was not expected though.

[JN Anderson]

This is the first time I've seen some of your claws! Scary! :)

JN, I appreciate you coming on here attempting to clear things up, with your photo and ID public. Through frustration, you set people off with some things, but it seems you apologized and it's not for AFF to accept, but for Baron.

You seem to believe the forum is dangerous, can get ugly, etc. and I'd say that it has that potential. But I think that's outweighed by the beautiful, articulate and heart-felt discussions that happen on AFF. It's imperfect people for sure. I don't think you will find a better group elsewhere. The difference is that some air it out even uglier about others in private -- and just for the sake of tearing down opponents. FYI LS and Oneness Pentecostals are not the only ones falling for this wannabe scholar business. Many charismatics are as well. But since we are all coming from a Oneness Pentecostal perspective, we do find it curious that exaggerated, often-shady citing of educational credentials is something of a Oneness Pentecostal phenom. Some on AFF that are very conservative with Water-Spirit doctrine, pro-UPC, etc have said the same and are upset about it. They want the group to buck up, have some integrity and character and to get their motives right. It does a disservice to those trying hard to not only earn legit degrees, but actually learn.

LS happens to be a huge targer because he has caused division over a non-Biblical doctrine. He has threatened his opposers, not with love, but with judgement and phony prophecy. (I've even heard he some more wild things he does than that... thinking "death list" for example, but I'll leave that alone for now). Throwing himself in the spotlight like that, posturing as a scholar, citing not only his prophetic skills as an elitist but also his ability to be a scholar, he deserves some academic scrutiny. What was discovered was not expected though.

I agree with much of what you said. I feel the same way bout the degree mills. I have well over 20,000 tied up on my education at Liberty. A few more at Northeast Texas Community College. And a few dollars at the old JCM. Guys who get a Ph.D for 4 or 5,000 are cheating themselves.

[Cindy]

There is a difference in defending men and the truth. And it is hard to defend someone else's lie.

[Barb]

This is the first time I've seen some of your claws! Scary! :)

JN, I appreciate you coming on here attempting to clear things up, with your photo and ID public. Through frustration, you set people off with some things, but it seems you apologized and it's not for AFF to accept, but for Baron.

You seem to believe the forum is dangerous, can get ugly, etc. and I'd say that it has that potential. But I think that's outweighed by the beautiful, articulate and heart-felt discussions that happen on AFF. It's imperfect people for sure. I don't think you will find a better group elsewhere. The difference is that some air it out even uglier about others in private -- and just for the sake of tearing down opponents. FYI LS and Oneness Pentecostals are not the only ones falling for this wannabe scholar business. Many charismatics are as well. But since we are all coming from a Oneness Pentecostal perspective, we do find it curious that exaggerated, often-shady citing of educational credentials is something of a Oneness Pentecostal phenom. Some on AFF that are very conservative with Water-Spirit doctrine, pro-UPC, etc have said the same and are upset about it. They want the group to buck up, have some integrity and character and to get their motives right. It does a disservice to those trying hard to not only earn legit degrees, but actually learn.

LS happens to be a huge targer because he has caused division over a non-Biblical doctrine. He has threatened his opposers, not with love, but with judgement and phony prophecy. (I've even heard he some more wild things he does than that... thinking "death list" for example, but I'll leave that alone for now). Throwing himself in the spotlight like that, posturing as a scholar, citing not only his prophetic skills as an elitist but also his ability to be a scholar, he deserves some academic scrutiny. What was discovered was not expected though.
It never is, and herein lies the problem...

We are famous for making stars of God's people. Good men and women of God, used in ministry and the Gifts, are often placed on a level God never intended them to be.

The tragedy is when those elevated to star status begin to believe in their own greatness.

There is only one Star in this play and it is the King of Kings...!!!

[rgcraig]

There is a difference in defending men and the truth. And it is hard to defend someone else's lie.

WOW Cindy.....that is GREAT!!!

[Cindy]

If some will go to this length to cover up something so seemingly small. What lengths will they go to to cover up a BIG thing?

[Jeffrey]

I agree with much of what you said. I feel the same way bout the degree mills. I have well over 20,000 tied up on my education at Liberty. A few more at Northeast Texas Community College. And a few dollars at the old JCM. Guys who get a Ph.D for 4 or 5,000 are cheating themselves.

Well, and I think guys that want to be national leaders, scholars, or teachers shouldn't waste their time at Cracker Jack Box University's. Even if they do some papers and homework. There's such a drastic difference in academic rigor. Our guys shouldn't take the easy way out -- at least if they plan on using that education as a hoist to lead and teach others, and especially if they want to encourage scholarship.

[Jeffrey]

It never is, and herein lies the problem...

We are famous for making stars of God's people. Good men and women of God, used in ministry and the Gifts, are often placed on a level God never intended them to be.

The tragedy is when those elevated to star status begin to believe in their own greatness.

There is only one Star in this play and it is the King of Kings...!!!

You're right. It's a syndrome. But through the "men of God are stars" business out, and we still have men who are dedicating their lives to be stewards of the mysteries of God, students themselves, teachers, scholars, etc. They owe it to themselves to obtain their education with integrity!

[mental]

Well, and I think guys that want to be national leaders, scholars, or teachers shouldn't waste their time at Cracker Jack Box University's. Even if they do some papers and homework. There's such a drastic difference in academic rigor. Our guys shouldn't take the easy way out -- at least if they plan on using that education as a hoist to lead and teach others, and especially if they want to encourage scholarship.

Unfortunately Oneness “scholars” already have a very poor reputation among true PhDs. These diploma mill shenanigans only help to prove that Oneness leaders are not only ignorant and lazy but that they are also dishonest. Who can blame Trinitarians for their low opinion of Oneness scholarship when they see this kind of stuff and compare Oneness writings to true scholars like N.T. Wright, Fee, Walton, Bruce, Beale, France, Thiselton, Harris, … The list of great Trinitarian scholars goes on and on. These men have invested the time and money to master their fields of study. The difference in the quality of research between these men and Oneness writings is night and day.

LS can’t even figure out how to use his Strong’s concordance to find the right Greek word translated as long in 1 Cor. 11.

[Justin]

If some will go to this length to cover up something so seemingly small. What lengths will they go to to cover up a BIG thing?

:thumbsup

[Justin]

Unfortunately Oneness “scholars” already have a very poor reputation among true PhDs. These diploma mill shenanigans only help to prove that Oneness leaders are not only ignorant and lazy but that they are also dishonest. Who can blame Trinitarians for their low opinion of Oneness scholarship when they see this kind of stuff and compare Oneness writings to true scholars like N.T. Wright, Fee, Walton, Bruce, Beale, France, Thiselton, Harris, … The list of great Trinitarian scholars goes on and on. These men have invested the time and money to master their fields of study. The difference in the quality of research between these men and Oneness writings is night and day.

LS can’t even figure out how to use his Strong’s concordance to find the right Greek word translated as long in 1 Cor. 11.

:spit

I guess when you're a "prophet" you get to make things up as you go.

[Maximilian]

Unfortunately Oneness “scholars” already have a very poor reputation among true PhDs. These diploma mill shenanigans only help to prove that Oneness leaders are not only ignorant and lazy but that they are also dishonest. Who can blame Trinitarians for their low opinion of Oneness scholarship when they see this kind of stuff and compare Oneness writings to true scholars like N.T. Wright, Fee, Walton, Bruce, Beale, France, Thiselton, Harris, … The list of great Trinitarian scholars goes on and on. These men have invested the time and money to master their fields of study. The difference in the quality of research between these men and Oneness writings is night and day.

LS can’t even figure out how to use his Strong’s concordance to find the right Greek word translated as long in 1 Cor. 11.

What a phenom list of scholarly (and contemporary) names you just listed. :thumbsup

And... sadly, I have to agree. I will say, though, that these other scholars don't see a world as "Trinitarian vs. Oneness" scholarship. In fact, many of the scholars you listed divide among themselves. Douglas Moo would combat the notions of Fee in the whole Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate. Then throw in Fee's scholarly work with the charismata, Holy Spirit, etc and that sets him apart from the others. What I see are men that have taken a dive into Study, not set on being "this camp versus this camp." That's, afterall, not a scholarly attitude at all.

[Timmy]

But really, how relevant is education in matters of faith? Consider all the agnostic and atheist scholars. The Holy Spirit will teach you all truth. What more do you need?

[mental]

What a phenom list of scholarly (and contemporary) names you just listed. :thumbsup

And... sadly, I have to agree. I will say, though, that these other scholars don't see a world as "Trinitarian vs. Oneness" scholarship. In fact, many of the scholars you listed divide among themselves. Douglas Moo would combat the notions of Fee in the whole Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate. Then throw in Fee's scholarly work with the charismata, Holy Spirit, etc and that sets him apart from the others. What I see are men that have taken a dive into Study, not set on being "this camp versus this camp." That's, afterall, not a scholarly attitude at all.

Exactly! That is the beauty of true scholarship. Scholars with different views can debate openly about their differences while still respecting each other’s contributions. I doubt you would find that same openness to being questioned in Oneness circles. I haven’t seen it anyways. I see men in power who are scared to have open debate.

[Timmy]

Exactly! That is the beauty of true scholarship. Scholars with different views can debate openly about their differences while still respecting each other’s contributions. I doubt you would find that same openness to being questioned in Oneness circles. I haven’t seen it anyways. I see men in power who are scared to be questioned.

In most cases, this would be considered a sign that they are actually wrong, and they know it. (I said most cases!)

[Maximilian]

But really, how relevant is education in matters of faith? Consider all the agnostic and atheist scholars. The Holy Spirit will teach you all truth. What more do you need?

Entirely relevant. Are you serious?

The Holy Spirit is a way we "hear" the truth. Uncovering the Story of God, taking the history element of the Story, understanding what the words of Jesus first meant mean much to how we should understand them today.

You are right that the Holy Spirit takes a huge role when it comes to the heart issue of "hearing the truth" as Jesus often referred.

[Pro31:28]

Yes, and I apologized on here and AMF.

Mr. Anderson,
You stated that you apologized here and on AMF- I teach my children that apologizing and repenting are not going and doing that again and yet YOU stated that you would do that again.

You misrepresented yourself as a friend in order to gain personal information from Baron (while you were exposing his personal information to a lying con man). He was completely honest with you all the way around- so you may say he should not go digging around in other people's credentials (i.e., looking them up online), but you should stop pretending to be something you are not, and consider what you have done and who you are in league with.

Show me who your friends are and I will show you who you are.

[pelathais]

... What I see are men that have taken a dive into Study, not set on being "this camp versus this camp." That's, afterall, not a scholarly attitude at all.

I can't remember who said it, but some wizen old sage I heard in a lecture once said, "There is no such thing as 'conservative scholarship' or 'liberal scholarship.' There is only good scholarship and bad scholarship."

[MissBrattified]

My husband's take on this thread:

"Call it Holy Magic Flair." :D

[Maximilian]

I can't remember who said it, but some wizen old sage I heard in a lecture once said, "There no such thing as 'conservative scholarship' or 'liberal scholarship.' There is only good scholarship and bad scholarship."

:thumbsup

[ManOfWord]

I can say one thing, and that is that someone is making a BIG mistake when they come on here and try to feign something they are not. There are enough people here with enough means, and love for truth, to uncover just about anything questionable, false or even downright deceptive. Many have been betrayed by their Org. and their brethren and are no longer content to "drink" whatever is put before them. I love the words Ronald Reagan used, "Trust but verify." That will continue to happen here over and over and over. May God and His truth prevail! :D

[D. Wright]

John, I am not tying to "pretend" anything. I don't need too for you or anyone else. You need to let this sink in slowly. You were poking into alot of people's business. It is only right, given you are crucifying them here, that they know who their detractors are and be able to contact them. What happened from there with the DC bar call had nothing to do with me.

July 6th 4:432pm on AMF

Anderson

Character assasination.(sic) Some posters have made it their business to dig into credentials, backgrounds, etc and offer their findings on a forum. Some of it is true and some of it is not. The main thing is that I think the wrong people are upset now. I know 2 lawyers are investigating it and pursuing it now.


Hmmmmmmm.

[ManOfWord]

Hmmmmmmm. Originally Posted by JN Anderson
John, I am not tying to "pretend" anything. I don't need too for you or anyone else. You need to let this sink in slowly. You were poking into alot of people's business. It is only right, given you are crucifying them here, that they know who their detractors are and be able to contact them. What happened from there with the DC bar call had nothing to do with me.
Quote:
July 6th 4:432pm on AMF

Anderson

Character assasination.(sic) Some posters have made it their business to dig into credentials, backgrounds, etc and offer their findings on a forum. Some of it is true and some of it is not. The main thing is that I think the wrong people are upset now. I know 2 lawyers are investigating it and pursuing it now.
Interesting. The above is a case in point! Nothing passes the scrutiny AFF's members.

[Timmy]

. . . Some of it is true and some of it is not. . . .

JN, what findings have been posted here that are not true?

[Maximilian]

*jaw dropped* WOW!! REALLY????

"Noting to do with it" maybe doesn't mean "have no knowledge of it?"

[pelathais]

*jaw dropped* WOW!! REALLY????

"Noting to do with it" maybe doesn't mean "have no knowledge of it?"

Hasn't JN backed away from those earlier statements? I would like a little clarity about the "two lawyers looking into it..." claim, though.

Give them my number. I'll stand by the posts that Baron, DAII, myself and others have made concerning the bogus "degrees." Put me up in a court of law over this. Go for it. Baron simply started this thread, but this discussion has been ongoing for a while.

[rgcraig]

Hasn't JN backed away from those earlier statements? I would like a little clarity about the "two lawyers looking into it..." claim.

Give them my number. I'll stand by the posts that Baron, DAII, myself and others have made concerning the bogus "degrees." Put me up in a court of law over this. Go for it. Baron simply started this thread, but this discussion has been ongoing for a while.

There are none.

One was Boora which isn't considered an atty in the US

[pelathais]

There are none.

One was Boora which isn't considered an atty in the US

Not knowing the precise content of the JNA-Boora conversation, it does appear that for whatever reason, JNA came away from that calling thinking he had just spoken with an attorney.

[DAII]

Not knowing the precise content of the JNA-Boora conversation, it does appear that for whatever reason, JNA came away from that calling thinking he had just spoken with an attorney.

If you read his bio you walk away thinking Boora is a lawyer.

Yet to be verified. Could very well be.

No doubt JA took Booras tone seriously in their conversations.

Also the voice on the recording seems to be allegedly Boora's, according to one confirmation.

[DAII]

Not knowing the precise content of the JNA-Boora conversation, it does appear that for whatever reason, JNA came away from that calling thinking he had just spoken with an attorney.

If you read his bio you walk away thinking Boora is a lawyer.

Yet to be verified. Could very well be.

No doubt JA took Booras tone seriously in their conversations.

Also the voice on the recording seems to be allegedly Boora's, according to one confirmation.

[Praxeas]

Why exactly would a a Dr. confer with a non-family member concerning medical treatment? Lee was a "foreigner" there and had no family close by - but still, is it really customary to consult with a lay person concerning the critical care of a patient?

The whole story reads as though it were an elaborate gloss of what really happened. It also contains a great number of "couches" where the writer proclaims the "miraculous" took place while simultaneously leaving the door open for more naturalist explanations.

In other words, it's about as hyped as his "Ph.Ds".
I don't know. Was it a lay person? I heard, as the story went, that it was the pastor of a church there in Australia

[Praxeas]

Lame. Real lame. What did Baron even do to "offend?" He did contact Princeton concerning a completely unrelated character. He also opined along the way but never even came close to anything that Boora alleged.

One tip here as well: An AFF poster had given Baron's private cell number to Boora. This AFF poster then called Baron to "warn" him - but he refused to say who he had given Baron's number to. This strikes me as the very height of unethical conduct.

I am very disappointed with that poster. And Boora's behavior has been beyond the pale. If "Knight" is Boora's pastor then I would hope that something a bit more sincere is forthcoming from Boora.
I agree, it seems that person was seeking to cause Baron trouble...

I wonder why they haven't tried to sue CARM...they've said all kinds of nasty things about people they know like David Bernard

[ManOfWord]

Not knowing the precise content of the JNA-Boora conversation, it does appear that for whatever reason, JNA came away from that calling thinking he had just spoken with an attorney.

Well, that could be the case, but the burden then rests upon Boora. (whoever that is, I have no clue) :D

[Timmy]

I agree, it seems that person was seeking to cause Baron trouble...

I wonder why they haven't tried to sue CARM...they've said all kinds of nasty things about people they know like David Bernard

Saaayyyyy, has CARM found out about this little firestorm, yet?

[Ferd]

I wish JN Anderson would realize that he could have real friends here. We do get scrappy but it's because of the passion we feel for our God and for the cause that we've been called to defend.

We're not the type to puff our credentials. We don't tell people that we're "lawyers from the Bar Association" and try to bully them into silence. We don't pretend evidence exists for things that clearly never happened in human history. We don't burden anyone with non-Biblical edicts and the commandments of men.

We're not perfect, but we don't try and sell ourselves off as if we were.

Our one glaring fault appears to be a desire to understand the truth of a matter. Personally, I'll wear that "fault" as a badge of honor.

If someone makes a public claim about angels or the parchment on their walls - then we have the right - NO! - we have the duty to look into it. To do less would be to fail not only ourselves, but those who have gone before us.

As one who differes from the herd here on any number of issues, I have found friendship among this group. Pel I appreciate this post and concur. You have been my friend even though we have found plenty of room to disagree on theological matters!

Honest and a pursuit of truth are always good common ground that people can build upon even when they do not agree on other matters of import.

[DAII]

I am unfamiliar with the various pathways and intricacies of British law practice ... however like the bar associations ... there are databases to verify if a person is part of it.

The following is just research and perhaps faulty .... however I believe worthy to take note.

According to Wiki's article on Executive Lawyers it reads:

Fellows of ILEX
A Fellow of ILEX is a qualified lawyer.

Only Fellows of ILEX (F.Inst.L.Ex) can lawfully describe themselves as a "Legal Executive" and Fellows are also qualified by the Crown (by way of ILEX) to be "Commissioners of Oaths"[1], able to take depositions and affidavits. Fellows also can bring action in court and appear for clients in some, but not all courts. Appearance in higher courts requires a separate ILEX qualification to become a Legal Executive Advocate.

Mr. Boora's bio reads:

KULWANT SINGH BOORA is an Adjunct Professor of International Law with Washington Institute for Graduate Studies. Mr. Boora studied law at Sutton Coldfield College where he completed his Professional Dipolma in Law and Higher Professional Diploma in conjunction with the Institute of Legal Executives Tutorial College of Law. After completing his law studies with Sutton Coldfield College, he furthered his legal education and went on to complete his Graduate Diploma in Law/CPE (Law Society of England and Wales Common Professional Examinations) with Hertfordshire University School of Law. He also earned a Bachelor of Arts with Honors (B.A. Hons) from Staffordshire University. He has been a visiting lecturer at the University of Toledo, Ohio, and has served as a law tutor with ICLS and the National Association of Licensed Paralegals, England. He has also served as a judicial intern to a United States District Court Federal Judge and is also admitted as a Fellow and Legal Executive lawyer in the United Kingdom. Mr. Boora is also on Washington Institute's International Advisory Board, where he advises on international regulations and policy

I have searched ILEX's database and cannot find Mr. Boora's name

http://www.ilex.org.uk/about_legal_executives/legal_executives_directory.aspx


Scroll down on page to search.


Perhaps I have missed something?
I will be contacting ILEX for more information.

[Maximilian]

Bora Bora! What a fab vacation spot!

[Praxeas]

Who does LS's website?

http://www.leestoneking.com/copyright.htm

[Maximilian]

Who does LS's website?

http://www.leestoneking.com/copyright.htm

I hope he doesn't pay someone for it. :ursofunny


According to your link he does (and proudly so) most of the graphics.

[pelathais]

I don't know. Was it a lay person? I heard, as the story went, that it was the pastor of a church there in Australia

A local pastor would be considered a "layperson" to those within the medical field in a manner similar to the laity/clergy relationships within the church.

In any event, I am expressing skepticism that the local pastor - however well meaning and well intentioned his input might have been - had no real impact on the prescribed medical treatments.

Someone earlier had questioned the Aussie docs for not going forth with "cutting the patient open" when the pastor had said, "No! Let's pray instead..." My response was intended to assure the other poster that the Aussie doctors were in all likelihood not swayed away from taking whatever prudent action they thought was necessary. LS's high praise of all the medical folks involved seems to offer something of an overriding indicator here, at least IMHO.

[Maximilian]

Did he recently bolden the whole:

Doctor of Christian Philosophy in Christian Education - Institute for Christian Works Bible College and Seminary - South Carolina Campus

I won't even waste my time looking that one up.

[Timmy]

A local pastor would be considered a "layperson" to those within the medical field in a manner similar to the laity/clergy relationships within the church.

In any event, I am expressing skepticism that the local pastor - however well meaning and well intentioned his input might have been - had no real impact on the prescribed medical treatments.

Someone earlier had questioned the Aussie docs for not going forth with "cutting the patient open" when the pastor had said, "No! Let's pray instead..." My response was intended to assure the other poster that the Aussie doctors were in all likelihood not swayed away from taking whatever prudent action they thought was necessary. LS's high praise of all the medical folks involved seems to offer something of an overriding indicator here, at least IMHO.

That poster's concern wasn't only in the accuracy of the narrative, but also (and mostly) that some people reading it might follow its example. :thumbsup

[pelathais]

Well, that could be the case, but the burden then rests upon Boora. (whoever that is, I have no clue) :D

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?_encoding=UTF8&sort=relevancerank&search-alias=books&field-author=Kulwant%20Singh%20Boora

http://www.apostolicnews.org/2009/12/ex-sikh-convert-shares-his-incredible-testimony/

http://www.wsltax.org/school-faculty.php

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/distance-learning-discussions/29129-washington-institute-graduate-studies.html

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Non-accreditedSchools_78090_7.pdf

[Praxeas]

A local pastor would be considered a "layperson" to those within the medical field in a manner similar to the laity/clergy relationships within the church.

In any event, I am expressing skepticism that the local pastor - however well meaning and well intentioned his input might have been - had no real impact on the prescribed medical treatments.

Someone earlier had questioned the Aussie docs for not going forth with "cutting the patient open" when the pastor had said, "No! Let's pray instead..." My response was intended to assure the other poster that the Aussie doctors were in all likelihood not swayed away from taking whatever prudent action they thought was necessary. LS's high praise of all the medical folks involved seems to offer something of an overriding indicator here, at least IMHO.
When you said Lay person I thought you were talking ecclesiastics

BTW are the people that are conveying this story here going off transcripts of LS's words?

[Praxeas]

Did he recently bolden the whole:

Doctor of Christian Philosophy in Christian Education - Institute for Christian Works Bible College and Seminary - South Carolina Campus

I won't even waste my time looking that one up.
Someone did. We wondered if that was not to make a point to someone here

[pelathais]

That poster's concern wasn't only in the accuracy of the narrative, but also (and mostly) that some people reading it might follow its example. :thumbsup

I liked the cartoonish image I tried to paint of the "Crocodile Dundee" slasher/doctors combating with the "local pastor" over whether or not to carve the unfortunate patient open... those Aussies are a crazed bunch!

I am glad, however, and will continue to hope that all of these parties are doing well and in good health, no matter in what fashion that health was achieved.

I share a lot of your skepticism in matters like these, Timmy, but the overall tone of the "testimony" does make me feel rather certain that any of LS's acolytes who might read this will NOT forsake the counsel of their doctors when needed.

[pelathais]

When you said Lay person I thought you were talking ecclesiastics

BTW are the people that are conveying this story here going off transcripts of LS's words?

It's on his site - in his Testimony. *Warning* There is a mildly gruesome picture of LS after he had cracked his skull on the airport terminal floor.

http://www.leestoneking.com/My%20Miracle.htm

[Justin]

I am unfamiliar with the various pathways and intricacies of British law practice ... however like the bar associations ... there are databases to verify if a person is part of it.

The following is just research and perhaps faulty .... however I believe worthy to take note.

According to Wiki's article on Executive Lawyers it reads:


Fellows of ILEX

A Fellow of ILEX is a qualified lawyer.

Only Fellows of ILEX (F.Inst.L.Ex) can lawfully describe themselves as a "Legal Executive" and Fellows are also qualified by the Crown (by way of ILEX) to be "Commissioners of Oaths"[1], able to take depositions and affidavits. Fellows also can bring action in court and appear for clients in some, but not all courts. Appearance in higher courts requires a separate ILEX qualification to become a Legal Executive Advocate.
Mr. Boora's bio reads:

Quote:
KULWANT SINGH BOORA is an Adjunct Professor of International Law with Washington Institute for Graduate Studies. Mr. Boora studied law at Sutton Coldfield College where he completed his Professional Dipolma in Law and Higher Professional Diploma in conjunction with the Institute of Legal Executives Tutorial College of Law. After completing his law studies with Sutton Coldfield College, he furthered his legal education and went on to complete his Graduate Diploma in Law/CPE (Law Society of England and Wales Common Professional Examinations) with Hertfordshire University School of Law. He also earned a Bachelor of Arts with Honors (B.A. Hons) from Staffordshire University. He has been a visiting lecturer at the University of Toledo, Ohio, and has served as a law tutor with ICLS and the National Association of Licensed Paralegals, England. He has also served as a judicial intern to a United States District Court Federal Judge and is also admitted as a Fellow and Legal Executive lawyer in the United Kingdom. Mr. Boora is also on Washington Institute's International Advisory Board, where he advises on international regulations and policy



I have searched ILEX's database and cannot find Mr. Boora's name

http://www.ilex.org.uk/about_legal_executives/legal_executives_directory.aspx


Scroll down on page to search.


Perhaps I have missed something?
I will be contacting ILEX for more information.

The plot thickens. Amazing how LS can walk in to a church and "sense" a disruption from the angels due to women to cut their hair and rebellion against God's order of creation, but he cannot sense deceptive men.

[ManOfWord]

It's on his site - in his Testimony. *Warning* There is a mildly gruesome picture of LS after he had cracked his skull on the airport terminal floor.

http://www.leestoneking.com/My%20Miracle.htm


He's more nekkid than my speedo pics ever were! LOL

[pelathais]

When you said Lay person I thought you were talking ecclesiastics

...

Yeah... you're probably not old enough to remember Dr. Kildare or Ben Casey.

You can get up to speed here: (http://www.archive.org/details/OTRR_Dr_Kildare_Singles) with Lionel Barrymore's famous performances.

The pics below are from the respective TV series. If you weren't "medical" you were a "layperson."

[Timmy]

I liked the cartoonish image I tried to paint of the "Crocodile Dundee" slasher/doctors combating with the "local pastor" over whether or not to carve the unfortunate patient open... those Aussies are a crazed bunch!

I am glad, however, and will continue to hope that all of these parties are doing well and in good health, no matter in what fashion that health was achieved.

I share a lot of your skepticism in matters like these, Timmy, but the overall tone of the "testimony" does make me feel rather certain that any of LS's acolytes who might read this will NOT forsake the counsel of their doctors when needed.

Hope you're right.

[pelathais]

He's more nekkid than my speedo pics ever were! LOL

Hey! Now wait a minute... :ursofunny

Now I have to clarify that by "mildly gruesome" I intended nothing disparaging toward LS's uncovered form.

[MrMasterMind]

Mr Anderson,

I appreciate the PM requesting a personal conversation.

Under the circumstances I cannot see how that could possibly be fruitful.

In my opinion you have not behaved honorably in this situation.

You knew your friend KB had relayed that he was intending on filing a complaint with the DC bar and going to pursue other legal action against Baron.

With this knowledge beforehand you passed along Baron’s personal contact information. When calling Baron to let him know what you had done you refused to tell Baron exactly to whom you had given this information.

While I doubt you knew someone was going to call and pretend to be a member of the DC bar, you were not only complicit in legal action being taken you gloated about it on other forums.

Perhaps this will be a maturing moment for you, in which case perhaps we can share private communication at a future date.

But for right now, to be honest I do not trust you.

Anything you feel you have to communicate to me will be in public.

[Praxeas]

It's on his site - in his Testimony. *Warning* There is a mildly gruesome picture of LS after he had cracked his skull on the airport terminal floor.

http://www.leestoneking.com/My%20Miracle.htm
When I was put in the ambulance, I was slated for DOA - Dead on Arrival
The blood had coagulated in my hands, forearms, feet and calves. What I did not know is that it had also clotted in my heart. There were clots and the doctor's advice was, "We have to cut him open immediately to even try to save his life." Pastor Slack and those with him said, 'No, we'll pray." And they prayed... they took another set of pictures of my heart and the clots and blockages had disappeared!!! They did not cut me open. The photos above portray Dr. Pitney's exclamations and comments concerning this miracle.
Dr. Pitney told me himself that there was one huge blood clot at the top of the heart area. But it totally disappeared and he said, "We do not know what happened to it.! BUT WE DO - JESUS STEPPED ON THE SCENE!


Here it is

[StMark]

St Mark and Justin, God help anyone who takes the liberty to change my academic credentials on my personal website in reaction to an internet forum and without my knowledge or consent.

Doubt LS does it himself personally either, but come on guys. You honestly think he has people changing his site without him approving?

Get real.


MMM, If you & others read ( or re-read) my post, I said nothing about how his website operates. I can ask though
(even though it's not that important to me personally).

As to the questions about the travel dates, I am told LS is leaving early to be with Bro Willoughby who is taking chemo and has been ill.



.

[drummerboy_dave]

Wow! This is totally amazing. Am I missing something here? Anderson gives out Baron's phone number without discussing with Baron the fact that someone is seeking for him (Anderson) to divulge his (Baron's) phone number? Meanwhile, Anderson can't give Baron the name of whom he gave the number to after the fact that he already did so, citing personal ethics?

This is an incredible learning opportunity.

[DAII]

Becoming more and more increasingly clear that ILEX is the only professional body which represents Legal Executives and trainee Legal Executives.

http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Legal_Executive


Waiting on their response.

Have tried Singh and two names appear ... none are Kulwant's.

http://www.ilex.org.uk/about_legal_executives/legal_executives_directory.aspx

[notofworks]

Mr Anderson,

I appreciate the PM requesting a personal conversation.

Under the circumstances I cannot see how that could possibly be fruitful.

In my opinion you have not behaved honorably in this situation.

You knew your friend KB had relayed that he was intending on filing a complaint with the DC bar and going to pursue other legal action against Baron.

With this knowledge beforehand you passed along Baron’s personal contact information. When calling Baron to let him know what you had done you refused to tell Baron exactly to whom you had given this information.

While I doubt you knew someone was going to call and pretend to be a member of the DC bar, you were not only complicit in legal action being taken you gloated about it on other forums.

Perhaps this will be a maturing moment for you, in which case perhaps we can share private communication at a future date.

But for right now, to be honest I do not trust you.

Anything you feel you have to communicate to me will be in public.


He did the same thing to me and I declined. It seems as though things don't go so well when Mr. Anderson gets someone's phone number.

[DAII]

The book entitled The English Legal System By Gary Slapper, David Kelly
on page 547

also states that only ILEX members can call themselves Legal Executives:


http://books.google.com/books?id=KKOLAPdCAkIC&pg=PA547&lpg=PA547&dq=ilex+1963+lawyers&source=bl&ots=goNPjYNCTz&sig=hDI_BDLAITcu1fat2AHRJvZLczY&hl=en&ei=IjY2TKjaL4KBlAfB3ajVBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CDgQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=ilex%201963%20lawyers&f=false

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDY4FUyD12I/AAAAAAAAAmU/b64kxyKVpD0/ilex.png

[DAII]

Perhaps the ILEX database needs to be updated?

http://www.ilex.org.uk/about_legal_executives/legal_executives_directory.aspx

It would help verify and clarify this statement:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDY6hBtrOxI/AAAAAAAAAmc/UXuvLrPcTuI/boorabio.png

[Cindy]

The book entitled The English Legal System By Gary Slapper, David Kelly
on page 547

also states that only ILEX members can call themselves Legal Executives:


http://books.google.com/books?id=KKOLAPdCAkIC&pg=PA547&lpg=PA547&dq=ilex+1963+lawyers&source=bl&ots=goNPjYNCTz&sig=hDI_BDLAITcu1fat2AHRJvZLczY&hl=en&ei=IjY2TKjaL4KBlAfB3ajVBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CDgQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=ilex%201963%20lawyers&f=false

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDY4FUyD12I/AAAAAAAAAmU/b64kxyKVpD0/ilex.png

So are they the equivalent of a para-legal?

[MrMasterMind]

So unless someone can come up with information to the contrary it appears that he may not even be licensed in any manner in England either?

Now that would be ironic.

[Cindy]

So unless someone can come up with information to the contrary it appears that he may not even be licensed in any manner in England either?

Now that would be ironic.

Yes, I think it's a stretch to say you're an attorney or lawyer in the United States. Misrepresentation.

[MrMasterMind]

Yes, I think it's a stretch to say you're an attorney or lawyer in the United States. Misrepresentation.

To be fair maam he never claimed to be licensed here, at least not publicly.

And while starting out at what we would consider paralegal, (and do not have to go to law school,) they do a five year internship and are allowed limited practice, and do have the ability to even become partners in law firms eventually. But without the law school could never be licensed in US

However, the only way to be able to practice there you have to be a fellow in ILEX ( and according to his resume he is ) but for whatever reason they do not appear to have him listed in their database. Curiouser and curiouser.

[DAII]

So unless someone can come up with information to the contrary it appears that he may not even be licensed in any manner in England either?

Now that would be ironic.

I would not say licensed in any manner ..... however if ILEX is the only governing professional body in which one can hold the title of executive lawyer it would behoove anyone who claims to be an executive lawyer to be a part of it as a fellow or even as an advocate.

Their database directory is readily available to the public.

I will remain on the side of caution until I hear something more from ILEX.

Maybe he was at one time?

[Standards]

Phew, It took me several hours to read this thread. Shocking...devastating...and exhilarating. Not sure what to think after all that. Wow.

[pelathais]

So are they the equivalent of a para-legal?

A Legal Executive in the United Kingdom performs the same duties as a "Solicitor." A "solicitor" is the U.K. nomenclature for "lawyer" that we use here in the states.

It seems that the training is what makes the difference between a "solicitor" and a "Legal Executive" over there. Solicitors go the traditional route through a law school type of training. Legal Executives go through a looser series of classroom and work experience training and must train for 5 years under a licensed solicitor.

[JN Anderson]

For the record, I have spoken with John and Daniel Alicea via telephone. I do not feel that there was anything but proper dialogue and discussion. None of us yelled, threatened, or pitched fits. The Internet is the worst form of communication IMHO. So, I am not sure if tentativeness to actually dialog with a person, via phone, is about trust, petulance, or pedagogy (whatever you would like to label it). Again, I realize the persona of forums but I in no way intend explain, and explain for days to each person who wishes to play Freud with posts. If you feel so strong about the matter and wish to speak with me, correct me about the issue or something I've said you can PM me and I will either call you or give you my number.

[DAII]

A Legal Executive in the United Kingdom performs the same duties as a "Solicitor." A "solicitor" is the U.K. nomenclature for "lawyer" that we use here in the states.

It seems that the training is what makes the difference between a "solicitor" and a "Legal Executive" over there. Solicitors go the traditional route through a law school type of training. Legal Executives go through a looser series of classroom and work experience training and must train for 5 years under a licensed solicitor.

Has Kal lived that long in England after seemingly living in Ohio then Michigan? Unless he trained under a solicitor here in the States?

I don't know ... maybe someone can fill in the gaps.

[JN Anderson]

Pel, I responded to your post about Dr. Ferguson.

[DAII]

For the record, I have spoken with John and Daniel Alicea via telephone. I do not feel that there was anything but proper dialogue and discussion. None of us yelled, threatened, or pitched fits. The Internet is the worst form of communication IMHO. So, I am not sure if tentativeness to actually dialog with a person, via phone, is about trust, petulance, or pedagogy (whatever you would like to label it). Again, I realize the persona of forums but I in no way intend explain, and explain for days to each person who wishes to play Freud with posts. If you feel so strong about the matter and wish to speak with me, correct me about the issue or something I've said you can PM me and I will either call you or give you my number.

Yes ... and enjoyed our conversation ...

Some truth in the highlighted .... a lot is lost in electronic dialog.

[pelathais]

Yes ... and enjoyed our conversation ...

Some truth in the highlighted .... a lot is lost in electronic dialog.

Technically, your telephone conversation was also a dialog that is "electronic" in nature... never mind.

[JN Anderson]

Technically, your telephone conversation was also a dialog that is "electronic" in nature... never mind.

That was funny though....it is in the ebb and flow of this thread for sure. :)

[Standards]

For the record, I have spoken with John and Daniel Alicea via telephone. I do not feel that there was anything but proper dialogue and discussion. None of us yelled, threatened, or pitched fits. The Internet is the worst form of communication IMHO. So, I am not sure if tentativeness to actually dialog with a person, via phone, is about trust, petulance, or pedagogy (whatever you would like to label it). Again, I realize the persona of forums but I in no way intend explain, and explain for days to each person who wishes to play Freud with posts. If you feel so strong about the matter and wish to speak with me, correct me about the issue or something I've said you can PM me and I will either call you or give you my number.

I think a lot of this discussion was blown out of proportion. Emotions were running high, and I'm sure that JN said a few things that he wishes he could take back. However, I think he handled himself pretty well and did not hurt his reputation too badly. The same can not be said for other parties involved, but I won't name names.

[DAII]

Technically, your telephone conversation was also a dialog that is "electronic" in nature... never mind.

Electronic text .... goofball

[Praxeas]

I love "Oneness Pentecostalism"...I don't love the extremism such as HMH and damning everyone to hell.

I don't love the UPC with all it's faults...I think we need to stop hiding the faults and pretending they never happened or that they will go away on their own. That's the problem a lot of people have had with the UPC. It's a good ol boys club, more concerned with protecting it's own than the truth...as evidence by nothing being done about HMH and other issues that have been raised here.

[pelathais]

Has Kal lived that long in England after seemingly living in Ohio then Michigan? Unless he trained under a solicitor here in the States?

I don't know ... maybe someone can fill in the gaps.

My take is that he originates from the UK and his tenure in the American Midwest is the more recent extension of his adventures.

While such minutia may help to inform our questions about his published claims, I don't know that we really require too extensive of a bio from him. We're just concerned about possible misrepresentations in telephone conversations and in credentialing.

[pelathais]

I think a lot of this discussion was blown out of proportion. Emotions were running high, and I'm sure that JN said a few things that he wishes he could take back. However, I think he handled himself pretty well and did not hurt his reputation too badly. The same can not be said for other parties involved, but I won't name names.

Start a thread. Name names. Quit foolin' around!

[Praxeas]

One thing to think about...if it can be done here, it can be done out there on other forums by other persons. Maybe this should be a notice to all to cleanup all our acts...really think about what we say in public, what we post in public etc etc..

For many of us, the word spoken in public on topics like HMH by it's advocates, is quite embarrassing and if you think what we say is bad you should consider how what they out there think, especially if you believe they are lost and need us to lead them to the truth

[Standards]

I love "Oneness Pentecostalism"...I don't love the extremism such as HMH and damning everyone to hell.

I don't love the UPC with all it's faults...I think we need to stop hiding the faults and pretending they never happened or that they will go away on their own. That's the problem a lot of people have had with the UPC. It's a good ol boys club, more concerned with protecting it's own than the truth...as evidence by nothing being done about HMH and other issues that have been raised here.

Doctrinal differences will happen in organizations from time to time. There’s a difference between turning a blind eye to something and allowing an individual that has few beliefs that may differ from the majority to continue preaching. I do realize that the org. has indeed turned a blind eye to some questionable actions, but the UPCI is not the only org. that has this problem, you know. The degree is another issue, but I'd rather keep my opinions to myself. I'll just have to pray about it and let God work it out.

[JN Anderson]

I love "Oneness Pentecostalism"...I don't love the extremism such as HMH and damning everyone to hell.

I don't love the UPC with all it's faults...I think we need to stop hiding the faults and pretending they never happened or that they will go away on their own. That's the problem a lot of people have had with the UPC. It's a good ol boys club, more concerned with protecting it's own than the truth...as evidence by nothing being done about HMH and other issues that have been raised here.

Prax, I appreciate your honesty. I don't advocate HMH either. In FACT, I publicly denounced it in Fort Worth, TX in 2008 at the Apostolic Theological Forum. HMH is not held by everyone IMHO but it is a problem in some places. Jason has my paper I wrote there as well.

I am not licensed with the UPCI. I attend a UPC church. I do believe though that any attempt to organize human beings will generate faults and flaws. It is our problem though and not the true desire of UPC men. I would say most of them have a desire to preach the Apostolic message and are very good men. I would never be so naive to assume any social structure as being absolutely monolithic.

[Praxeas]

Doctrinal differences will happen in organizations from time to time. There’s a difference between turning a blind eye to something and allowing an individual that has few beliefs that may differ from the majority to continue preaching. I do realize that the org. has indeed turned a blind eye to some questionable actions, but the UPCI is not the only org. that has this problem, you know. The degree is another issue, but I'd rather keep my opinions to myself. I'll just have to pray about it and let God work it out.
The UPC came down hard on the doctrine of Divine Flesh....but it's winking at HMH

[Standards]

The UPC came down hard on the doctrine of Divine Flesh....but it's winking at HMH

I'm not a member of the UPCI, so I am not sure about what is going on. I hadn't even heard about the doctrine of divine flesh before now. I do believe that DKB is a good man. At least we know that his education is legit.

[pelathais]

One thing to think about...if it can be done here, it can be done out there on other forums by other persons. Maybe this should be a notice to all to cleanup all our acts...really think about what we say in public, what we post in public etc etc..

For many of us, the word spoken in public on topics like HMH by it's advocates, is quite embarrassing and if you think what we say is bad you should consider how what they out there think, especially if you believe they are lost and need us to lead them to the truth

As everyone knows... that is, as everyone who could possibly care less already knows, the girls in my household do not now, nor have they ever cut their hair. That's just us.

But even with this aspect of our own personal identity I do feel a very real level of embarrassment, even humiliation over this HMH nonsense. I don't want to be associated with it. I don't want the words "Oneness" or "Apostolic Faith" to be associated with it.

I also don't want a culture that facilitates fraud and deception to be associated with my beliefs either. That's what I'm railing about.

[JN Anderson]

The UPC came down hard on the doctrine of Divine Flesh....but it's winking at HMH

"there will be a day..." :)

[JN Anderson]

As everyone knows... that is, as everyone who could possibly care less already knows, the girls in my household do not now, nor have they ever cut their hair. That's just us.

But even with this aspect of our own personal identity I do feel a very real level of embarrassment, even humiliation over this HMH nonsense. I don't want to be associated with it. I don't want the words "Oneness" or "Apostolic Faith" to be associated with it.

I also don't want a culture that facilitates fraud and deception to be associated with my beliefs either. That's what I'm railing about.

:shockamoo:shockamoo:thumbsup

[Standards]

As everyone knows... that is, as everyone who could possibly care less already knows, the girls in my household do not now, nor have they ever cut their hair. That's just us.

But even with this aspect of our own personal identity I do feel a very real level of embarrassment, even humiliation over this HMH nonsense. I don't want to be associated with it. I don't want the words "Oneness" or "Apostolic Faith" to be associated with it.

I also don't want a culture that facilitates fraud and deception to be associated with my beliefs either. That's what I'm railing about.

I can understand this and I agree. I think we should allow our words to speak for themselves. Don't try to impress everyone with your education and academia. Just preach the truth. I am not at all impressed by what I've read today. I think I will just back away from certain people and let God take care of it.

[Elizabeth]

Oh it gets weirder ... considering the roots of SEU and its founder and those who claim to its alumni ... including Oneness ministers Stoneking, Art Wilson and .... now Kalwunt Boora.

It's founder is Count Daniel Grimaldi or Daniel Swann... convicted con-man:



http://www.laweekly.com/content/printVersion/45748


These abstracts speak of the SEU's founders tactics:

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?issn=0040-0912&volume=27&issue=3&articleid=1703180&show=pdf&PHPSESSID=t90b6r2st8qv5op2nhe18jljq2

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?articleid=1703195&show=pdf
Good reporting DA-

[Elizabeth]

John Bear is the foremost expert in distance learning.

He is the author of Bears' Guide to Earning Degrees by Distance Learning ... now in its 16th edition

As posted previously he lists Southern Eastern University as a diploma mill in Chapter 25 of his 12th edition and others as well.

On page 229 of his 2003 edition he speaks of Count Daniel Grimaldi/Swann ....
http://books.google.com/books?id=k67XC_7y5xEC&pg=PA349&lpg=PA349&dq=john+bear+distance+learning+book+2003&source=bl&ots=PTU4fpMj6r&sig=B9_VdLIsgxHuT-8Yt6chPSEtCoQ&hl=en&ei=4WE0TJL0C4


A forum poster, who is believed to be John Bear at various degree forums goes into some detail about the nefarious founder of SEU here:

http://www.degreediscussion.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3759

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/distance-learning-discussions/7985-southern-eastern-university.html

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDMgWp2afWI/AAAAAAAAAlE/JXd7YfzQcUg/s1024/bear%20on%20grimaldi.png

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDMgWgcFiNI/AAAAAAAAAlI/kuAFStEi8Hg/bear2.png

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDMuZP4WNoI/AAAAAAAAAlU/bTVx-mkiEmM/bear3.jpg

Art ... Lee ... Kulwant ????

It don't matter if its signed or honorary.

You've been sold a bag of goods!!!

DA could be the Drudge of the apostolic world-wow!

[Elizabeth]

I had to do a lot of back tracking to make sense of this thread. But the last 2 above post by DA were extremely enlightening and helpful.

[Praxeas]

Prax, I appreciate your honesty. I don't advocate HMH either. In FACT, I publicly denounced it in Fort Worth, TX in 2008 at the Apostolic Theological Forum. HMH is not held by everyone IMHO but it is a problem in some places. Jason has my paper I wrote there as well.

I am not licensed with the UPCI. I attend a UPC church. I do believe though that any attempt to organize human beings will generate faults and flaws. It is our problem though and not the true desire of UPC men. I would say most of them have a desire to preach the Apostolic message and are very good men. I would never be so naive to assume any social structure as being absolutely monolithic.
Well as long as we have an organization, we need to be diligent with the faults and failures and do something.

I don't care for the jumping on the band wagon mentality, the gang mentality that just seeks to attack an organization for the love of just being negative. But on the other hand what we seem to have from the UPC folks is a desire to crush all dissent, to hide the facts etc etc...

People are suspicious already. They have exclusive forums. We are open. Those types regularly come on here to condemn everyone to hell that does not believe like they do, calling this forum by disparaging terms and what it seems to me is they are reaping what they sowed. By taking that sort of low road, to hide and control,it only fosters more resentment and suspicions,

And the liberal minded people are not perfect either. But what happens on this thread could have happened anywhere. Everything is public record. Who calls other ministers in the UPC on the stuff that goes on? Who dares to touch "the anointed"ones within the UPC? It doesn't seem like anyone does anything except for the "out casts".

IMO the reason LS has not been addressed more directly and this doctrine, is because the UPCI has, as an organization, a dishonest attitude of "the ends justify the means" and as long as what HMH teaches manipulates women into not cutting their hear for fear of losing protection, the UPC will do nothing.

Now, we have people sporting Ph.d's that are questionable and who is gonna do anything? You can't protect someone's reputation by ducking our heads in the ground, by threats or self denials...the reputation issues just get worse. BTW I used "You" generically, not meaning you personally

[pelathais]

I'm not a member of the UPCI, so I am not sure about what is going on. I hadn't even heard about the doctrine of divine flesh before now. I do believe that DKB is a good man. At least we know that his education is legit.

DKB is the nerd's nerd and a tremendous asset to the UPC fellowship. It was under his guidance and leadership that UGST persevered and won their accreditation. Only a leader who understands the importance of education would even hang on doggedly through that whole process.

The "divine flesh" thing is really just an aspect of the ancient Gnosticism that was part and parcel of the early church. Most of the Gnostic writings were preserved in Ethiopian Coptic texts, so it really should be a surprise that it was our Ethiopian brethren who brought this idea to the table.

[Elizabeth]

Well as long as we have an organization, we need to be diligent with the faults and failures and do something.

I don't care for the jumping on the band wagon mentality, the gang mentality that just seeks to attack an organization for the love of just being negative. But on the other hand what we seem to have from the UPC folks is a desire to crush all dissent, to hide the facts etc etc...

People are suspicious already. They have exclusive forums. We are open. Those types regularly come on here to condemn everyone to hell that does not believe like they do, calling this forum by disparaging terms and what it seems to me is they are reaping what they sowed. By taking that sort of low road, to hide and control,it only fosters more resentment and suspicions,

And the liberal minded people are not perfect either. But what happens on this thread could have happened anywhere. Everything is public record. Who calls other ministers in the UPC on the stuff that goes on? Who dares to touch "the anointed"ones within the UPC? It doesn't seem like anyone does anything except for the "out casts".

IMO the reason LS has not been addressed more directly and this doctrine, is because the UPCI has, as an organization, a dishonest attitude of "the ends justify the means" and as long as what HMH teaches manipulates women into not cutting their hear for fear of losing protection, the UPC will do nothing.

Now, we have people sporting Ph.d's that are questionable and who is gonna do anything? You can't protect someone's reputation by ducking our heads in the ground, by threats or self denials...the reputation issues just get worse. BTW I used "You" generically, not meaning you personally

I think this causes distrust towards the ministry.

[Timmy]

FYI, this thread's views are just about to surpass those of the thread "We're Not Putting X-Mas Trees Up!". Thought you'd like to know! :thumbsup After that, the next target is "Red on Women Drives Men Wild".

[MrMasterMind]

I'm not a member of the UPCI, so I am not sure about what is going on. I hadn't even heard about the doctrine of divine flesh before now. I do believe that DKB is a good man. At least we know that his education is legit.

Very true! Although I have to say the decision of pursuing a degree in religion from University of South Africa at this point is his career is a rather interesting choice.

[DAII]

In Kal Boora's own words .... on becoming a Legal Executive:

The Legal Executive

This route does not require that you have a law degree or a non-law degree, but a law degree can be helpful since you can be eligible for exemptions from all the law papers in part one and part two. In order to qualify as a legal executive, should you wish to go that far, you are required to pass all papers, both law and practice in part one and part two, which incidentally has now been changed to ‘ILEX Level 3 Professional Diploma in Law’ for part one and for part two it is now called ‘ILEX Level 6 Professional Higher Diploma in Law.’(4)

Furthermore you are also required to have had five years of practical experience, prior to admission as a Fellow of the Institute of Legal Executives. Only Fellows on the institute of Legal Executives can call themselves Legal Executives or British Lawyers. For those who seek admission from other jurisdictions, you can take the Institutes course by distance learning, or seek exemptions if you have comparable or equivalent English law or legal subject qualifications obtained within your jurisdiction. One thing that the Legal Executive Institute does it that it has been approved by the Law Society, so an individual wishing to pursue a career as a Solicitor can in fact come through the Legal Executive non-law or degree route (in reality you do not even need a law degree or non-law degree to become a solicitor).

For those jurisdictions, which engage in common law practice there again would I say that this is something that would be viewed in my opinion and understanding as something rather favorable. So in closing, we see that for those who wish to pursue admission in the UK, it may not seem that bad, since there are a lot of ways round the complicated system of things. Furthermore this also will serve credibility and justice to you as an individual and to your organization or law practice, in my personal view.

http://www.malet.com/MSG%202008/Pathways%20to%20the%20Legal%20Profession%20in%20En gland.htm


Perhaps there is a glitch in the ILEX system?
Hope ILEX gets back to me.

[Cindy]

In Kal Boora's own words .... on becoming a Legal Executive:



http://www.malet.com/MSG%202008/Pathways%20to%20the%20Legal%20Profession%20in%20En gland.htm


Perhaps there is a glitch in the ILEX system?
Hope ILEX gets back to me.

Got to love loopholes.

[Praxeas]

BTW....why would anyone call themselves "British Lawyer" as if being British makes them better? :razz

[pelathais]

...
Perhaps there is a glitch in the ILEX system?
Hope ILEX gets back to me.

I played around with that search and "Members Directory" that you linked to - with unsatisfactory results. I searched for "Boora" and came up with nothing.

However, I also plugged in the names "Jones" and "Smith" and only came up with members who were being "disciplined." I went back to the home page and navigated to the "search for disciplined members" page and got the same "members directory."

It would appear that some wires may be crossed at ILEX.

[Cindy]

BTW....why would anyone call themselves "British Lawyer" as if being British makes them better? :razz

What is his native country? And can he be a lawyer there?

[pelathais]

BTW....why would anyone call themselves "British Lawyer" as if being British makes them better? :razz

LOL. As Griff would say, "It all depends."

[Elizabeth]

Got to love loopholes.

So big one can drive right on through.

[pelathais]

What is his native country? And can he be a lawyer there?

It appears to be the U.K. And as it appears now - he is not a "lawyer" (because that term isn't used in the United Kingdom as it is used in the states) but he probably is a "Legal Executive" which seems to be the "poor man's" "Solicitor" across the Pond.

It's sort of like asking, "Who is the President of the United Kingdom?" Well, they obviously have no "President" but their "Prime Minister" serves a similar role. However, if you really want to get down to the brass tacks - the Prime Minister is really a different sort of critter altogether than our President - so they're not the same thing.

Long story short - there are no "lawyers" in the UK.

[DAII]

I played around with that search and "Members Directory" that you linked to - with unsatisfactory results. I searched for
"Boora" and came up with nothing.

However, I also plugged in the names "Jones" and "Smith" and only came up with members who were being "disciplined." I went back to the home page and navigated to the "search for disciplined members" page and got the same "members directory."

It would appear that some wires may be crossed at ILEX.

You may want to check by letter as well.

There is also a disciplined directory. Which perhaps you accessed.

I searched Singh got 2 names

[MrMasterMind]

BTW....why would anyone call themselves "British Lawyer" as if being British makes them better? :razz

More likely than not to point out subtlety that he is not licensed in the US.

IMHO it was a wise move, apparently one of the few he made lately.

[Cindy]

So he's not a doctor, lawyer, indian chief? Is he a preacher?

[MrMasterMind]

So he's not a doctor, lawyer, indian chief? Is he a preacher?

Not sure, but he has published a book on Oneness doctrine.
.
http://www.amazon.com/Oneness-God-Doctrine-Trinity/dp/1449008437/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278629573&sr=1-1


from an earlier post

[Cindy]

Not sure, but he has published a book on Oneness doctrine.
.
http://www.amazon.com/Oneness-God-Doctrine-Trinity/dp/1449008437/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278629573&sr=1-1


from an earlier post

Good grief.

[Baron1710]

Not sure, but he has published a book on Oneness doctrine.
.
http://www.amazon.com/Oneness-God-Doctrine-Trinity/dp/1449008437/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278629573&sr=1-1


from an earlier post

Self published to be accurate.

www.AuthorHouse.com

[Cindy]

Self published to be accurate.

www.AuthorHouse.com

So he's a self proclaimed expert? Sheesh.

[Timmy]

FYI, this thread's views are just about to surpass those of the thread "We're Not Putting X-Mas Trees Up!". Thought you'd like to know! :thumbsup After that, the next target is "Red on Women Drives Men Wild".

With 14,800 views, we have zipped right by those threads. Won't be long before it overtakes such threads as the JCM Reunion thread and "Uuh Ooh!!! Is Paula White's Ministry Unraveling??? Read This!!!"

[notofworks]

Dang it. I miss most of this today and I'm now 37 pages behind. Literally. Crud. Can't a guy go play golf once in a while? I'm gonna hafta dedicate my entire life to this stupid forum!!

[notofworks]

With 14,800 views, we have zipped right by those threads. Won't be long before it overtakes such threads as the JCM Reunion thread and "Uuh Ooh!!! Is Paula White's Ministry Unraveling??? Read This!!!"


I'm a little bitter about it actually, Timmy. My tattoo thread was going strong and this one just killed it. I can't believe people are more interested in this than tattoos.

[MrMasterMind]

Self published to be accurate.

www.AuthorHouse.com

Also put a new one out a couple days ago available on kindle.

See free advertising Kal, and you wanted this thread deleted.

:ursofunny

[MrMasterMind]

So he's a self proclaimed expert? Sheesh.

Believe in balance, the excerpt on Amazon wasn't bad.

Perhaps his grasp of theology exceeds his grasp of the law.

[DAII]

Remember the school St. Regis University .... it will help connect the dots

It is related the Spokane Diploma mill related to the Randock ring which was shut down by the Dept of Justice ...

We've read the 10,000 names article and database.

[DAII]

More about the St. Regis University scam.


Saint Regis University
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The subject of this article should not be confused with Regis University of Denver, Colorado.

Saint Regis University is a now-defunct diploma mill operation that was one of about 120 connected institutions operated by an American fraud ring from about 1999 until 2005, when it was shut down by U.S. government authorities.[1]

The Oregon State Office of Degree Authorization identified Saint Regis University as a diploma mill linked to 18 other front "schools".[2] The school issued degrees based on "life experience" instead of requiring the taking of actual academic classes or a formal course of study. It sold both college degrees and high school diplomas.

In 2006 the Associated Press reported that "at least 135 federal employees" held bogus degrees from the Saint Regis operation.[3] This included a White House staffer, a State Department employee in Kuwait, and a Department of Justice employee in Spokane, Washington.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Regis_University

[DAII]

Guess who was part of their illustrious faculty towards the end of there run ...
of St. Regis

The following 2004 is from a forum post speaking about the St Regis as the operation was folding..


http://forums.degreeinfo.com/accreditation-discussions-ra-detc-state-approval-unaccredited-schools/13864-saint-regis-academic-credential-assessment-corporation-2.html (http://forums.degreeinfo.com/accreditation-discussions-ra-detc-state-approval-unaccredited-schools/13864-saint-regis-academic-credential-assessment-corporation-2.html)

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDZt2f5EZnI/AAAAAAAAAmk/nNyOA5EFD9s/stregis.png

"Professors" Kulwant Boora and Bradley Carey have been at this for a long, long time ...

[Baron1710]

I think Mr. Boora has jumped into this thread and created a mess for himself. It is obvious he has a long history with diploma mills. I wonder how deep do his connections run to SEU?

[Hoovie]

DAII, You are showing yourself worthy of a new hat. Get one and use it in a new AVATAR please!

[DAII]

I think Mr. Boora has jumped into this thread and created a mess for himself. It is obvious he has a long history with diploma mills. I wonder how deep do his connections run to SEU?

Gotta think these folks are tied ... to it ... yes.

[Baron1710]

The next question is will Pastor Wilson be talking to his good friend Kal anytime soon?

[DAII]

The next question is will Pastor Wilson be talking to his good friend Kal anytime soon?
Maybe James Anderson could make the call too?

[Baron1710]

Because of the length of this thread I think we need to recap from the beginning.

[Baron1710]

The first school we looked into was Southern Eastern University...alma mater of Lee Stoneking, Art Wilson, and Kal Boora.

Tell us Dan where did that lead us to?

[DAII]

The first school we looked into was Southern Eastern University...alma mater of Lee Stoneking, Art Wilson, and Kal Boora.

Tell us Dan where did that lead us to?

South Eastern University is a notorious diploma according John Bear's Guide to Distance Learning which essentially allows you to access a doctorate with little to no effort.

It was founded by con man Daniel Swann/Count Grimaldi ... under the "old scheme" as its present director John Johnson calls it.

Kal Boora claims he completed his religion degree there.
Art Wilson once claimed a Phd from SEU on his church and ministry site. Because of this thread he has decided to pull any mention of this fake degree
and Lee Stoneking still claims a degree from SEU.

[Baron1710]

South Eastern University is a notorious diploma according John Bear's Guide to Distance Learning which essentially allows you to access a doctorate with little to no effort.

It was founded by con man Daniel Swann/Count Grimaldi ... under the "old scheme" as its present director John Johnson calls it.

Kal Boora claims he completed his religion degree there.
Art will once claimed a Phd from SEU
and Lee Stoneking still claims a degree from SEU.

From there we came across another school in South Carolina...now what was that school and who were the players involved there?

[DAII]

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDJIYPcwCEI/AAAAAAAAAk8/iiBxnF2O90I/artlee2.png

We also realized that the 3 friends have ties with the INSTITUTE FOR CHRISTIAN WORKS BIBLE COLLEGE AND SEMINARY

Both Boora and Wilson were/are listed as adjunct professors at this bible school.

It is run and founded by a Dr. P. Bradley Carey. A bishop of his own fellowship and still apparently has an open charge for alleged child molestation open in the State of Washington.

Wilson claimed a Phd from this school ... although no such degree exists ... even as an honorary degree as Wilson on this thread claimed it was ...

The school uses another designation for their "doctorate" degree since the state of S. Carolina does not allow it to use "secular nomenclature".

Lee Stoneking claims a doctorate from this Institute as well.

[Baron1710]

So then we come across a website that lists names of people who purchased diplomas from a diploma mill in Washington State. and Mr. Boora was listed on there. And where did that lead you.

[Cindy]

What about all the families, where mom's and dad's went to school for a degree. Probably had tight budgets to take care of their families. And then you have people like this. TRUTH MATTERS!

[DAII]

Doctor Boora .... reknown Oneness "scholar" has a suspect curriculum vitae.

His SEU degree is from a noted diploma mill.

He claims to be an Executive Lawyer in Britain yet the ILEX, the professional body's database does not indicate this.

He, along with Dr. Bradley, also seem to have ties with the St. Regis University diploma mill scam that rocked the nation in 2005-2008. Arrests and convictions made of several involved in this ring.

Boora's name shows on a national database as having purchased from this institution.

He and Bradley appear to have been "faculty" on the St. Regis University website.

There are still legitimate questions about his other degrees.

[Baron1710]

So Kulwant has been associated with at least 3 diploma mills is that correct?

[DAII]

So Kulwant has been associated with at least 3 diploma mills is that correct?

Yes ... 2 secular ones, most definitely ... while the 3rd, the Institute, is a semi-diploma mill ... the Institute since it does seem to have a course load and some semblance of structure ... along with satellites ...

However the requirements for a doctorate are very easy. Pay ... claim enough credits ... write a paper and you have a degree.

[Baron1710]

Yes ... 2 secular ones, most definitely ... while the 3rd, the Institute, is a semi-diploma mill ... the Institute since it does seem to have a course load and some semblance of structure ... along with satellites ...

However the requirements for a doctorate are very easy. Pay ... claim enough credits ... write a paper and you have a degree.

So other than the fraud, and intimidation that has taken place over the last few days trying to silence this thread is there anything else our readers should know?

[DAII]

So other than the fraud, an intimidation that has taken place over the last few days trying to silence this thread is there anything else our readers should know?

I sincerely pray God have mercy on us all.

You, Baron?

[Baron1710]

I sincerely pray God have mercy on us all.

You, Baron?

Should we recap the attempts at intimidation over the last 2 days?

[Baron1710]

Going to go ahead and recap: The first call from Kulwant Boora to myself he presented himself as a member of the DC bar and was investigating complaints against me. Unfortunately I was on the metro and the call was dropped and blocked so I could not return the call.

The next day I confirmed what I suspected that the call did not come from the DC bar.

The following day I received another call which was confirmed as being KS Boora letting me know "they" would not be pressing charges and was concerned for the reputations of Boora, Stoneking, Wilson and SEU. He wanted the thread deleted.

Did I miss anything?

[ManOfWord]

So there we have it....a tale of lies, deceit, power etc. The only thing missing are the sexcapades which I hope don't make it on these pages! Does that about cover it? :D

[Charnock]

I have decided to never again cross Daniel or Baron.

Wowsers!

[DAII]

Going to go ahead and recap: The first call from Kulwant Boora to myself he presented himself as a member of the DC bar and was investigating complaints against me. Unfortunately I was on the metro and the call was dropped and blocked so I could not return the call.

The next day I confirmed what I suspected that the call did not come from the DC bar.

The following day I received another call which was confirmed as being KS Boora letting me know "they" would not be pressing charges and was concerned for the reputations of Boora, Stoneking, Wilson and SEU. He wanted the thread deleted.

Did I miss anything?

Yes, I believe in questions.

One more .... I know this discussion has reached many ... including the masonic preacher forums ... like AMF...

Why is it, that Doug White's APF ... according to some has no mention of this story?

[Timmy]

I'll recap the level of interest in the thread.

In its first 5 days of life, as of 4:23 PM CT yesterday (7/7), this thread was viewed over 8,500 times. I don't know how many different people have seen the thread, as each separate view by a person counts.

The view count reached 10,000 by about 8 PM.

Since then, in the last 25 hours, just over a day, there have been more that 5,000 views, for a total of 15,334.

[Charnock]

Going to go ahead and recap: The first call from Kulwant Boora to myself he presented himself as a member of the DC bar and was investigating complaints against me. Unfortunately I was on the metro and the call was dropped and blocked so I could not return the call.

The next day I confirmed what I suspected that the call did not come from the DC bar.

The following day I received another call which was confirmed as being KS Boora letting me know "they" would not be pressing charges and was concerned for the reputations of Boora, Stoneking, Wilson and SEU. He wanted the thread deleted.

Did I miss anything?

This is so very typical. I could tell stories about this sort of crud all night long.

The guy feels heat and is afraid his deception will be uncovered. Instead of coming clean, or just removing the incorrect info and saying NOTHING, he goes into full attack mode.

Whatever happened to integrity?

Sign affirmations about TVs and holiness standards until your fingers are numb, but remember, dear friend, that your affirmations of affection for and obedience to religious law is as worthless as your diploma.

It's all about image.

[notofworks]

Going to go ahead and recap: The first call from Kulwant Boora to myself he presented himself as a member of the DC bar and was investigating complaints against me. Unfortunately I was on the metro and the call was dropped and blocked so I could not return the call.

The next day I confirmed what I suspected that the call did not come from the DC bar.

The following day I received another call which was confirmed as being KS Boora letting me know "they" would not be pressing charges and was concerned for the reputations of Boora, Stoneking, Wilson and SEU. He wanted the thread deleted.

Did I miss anything?


So if Knight hadn't shown up here claiming to be Stoneking's British attorney, this thread might have fizzled 60 pages ago, huh?

NOTE TO SELF: If one of your heroes is criticized on AFF, just keep your mouth shut.

[DAII]

This is so very typical. I could tell stories about this sort of crud all night long.

The guy feels heat and is afraid his deception will be uncovered. Instead of coming clean, or just removing the incorrect info and saying NOTHING, he goes into full attack mode.

Whatever happened to integrity?

Sign affirmations about TVs and holiness standards tell your fingers are numb but remember, dear friend, that your affirmations of external affection and obedience to religious law is as worthless as your diploma.

It's all about image.

Charnock ... it happens way too much ....

The culture in many ways is in need of a makeover from the inside out.

[DAII]

So there we have it....a tale of lies, deceit, power etc. The only thing missing are the sexcapades which I hope don't make it on these pages! Does that about cover it? :D

Pastor, I believe this story is just beginning to be told.

[Charnock]

Just remember, nothing will be said to him by organizational authorities.

However, if he put on a pair of knee shorts he would be called before a tribunal faster than a bat out of purgatory.

[Baron1710]

I would suggest that our readers tune back in soon as confirmation on additional details should be coming out in the next day or so.

[Knight]

So if Knight hadn't shown up here claiming to be Stoneking's British attorney, this thread might have fizzled 60 pages ago, huh?

NOTE TO SELF: If one of your heroes is criticized on AFF, just keep your mouth shut.

07-04-2010, 05:15 PM
Replies: 1,171 SEU (Southern Eastern University) updates
Views: 15,334 Posted By Knight
Re: SEU (Southern Eastern University) updates

I am not the attorney, i forwarded a copy of the steps interested supporters are taking..

I cleared that up way back.. I never claimed to be a attorney! I pasted a copy of what was sent to me when I was trying to get answers!!

[Baron1710]

07-04-2010, 05:15 PM
Replies: 1,171 SEU (Southern Eastern University) updates
Views: 15,334 Posted By Knight
Re: SEU (Southern Eastern University) updates

I am not the attorney, i forwarded a copy of the steps interested supporters are taking..

I cleared that up way back.. I never claimed to be a attorney! I pasted a copy of what was sent to me when I was trying to get answers!!

Knight,

I believe you have already stated your position and updated your website accordingly.

Your guilt here may only be by association, that seems to be what you said earlier.

Can you clear up some of these questions about KSB?

[notofworks]

07-04-2010, 05:15 PM
Replies: 1,171 SEU (Southern Eastern University) updates
Views: 15,334 Posted By Knight
Re: SEU (Southern Eastern University) updates

I am not the attorney, i forwarded a copy of the steps interested supporters are taking..

I cleared that up way back.. I never claimed to be a attorney! I pasted a copy of what was sent to me when I was trying to get answers!!



http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=934287&postcount=145




This is a response to the unwarranted comments, posted on the Apostolic Friends Forum regarding Mr. Lee Stoneking.

Firstly, the individual who posted such comments appears to be an individual that consistently posts comments on websites about other individuals, so it should not come as a surprise to see such conduct. In addition to this, it appears that the person has also violated the policy of the Apostolic Friends Forum, by using the forum as a means to circulate his or her propaganda.

Secondly, in speaking with the former Chair of SEU’s committee recently in Europe, communication was provided that verified that Mr. Stoneking was awarded an honorary Ph.D., from SEU, prior to the appointment of Mr. Johnson as Director. Mr. Johnson is currently being apprised of the matter by the former Chair of SEU in Europe. Mr. Stoneking has not been in any dialogue or direct communication with the author of such defamatory comments, who call’s themselves Baron.

As Mr. Stoneking’s British lawyer, we are currently looking into some additional matters regarding the underlying policies of the Apostolic Friends Forum, since we have been provided with confirmation and verification of Mr. Stoneking’s credentials and status. We anticipate that this resolves any misunderstanding.
Mr. Stoneking was honored by these schools for his lifetime work (SEU, ICW) he paid no funds or fees. you should print a retraction of your statements.

[Praxeas]

07-04-2010, 05:15 PM
Replies: 1,171 SEU (Southern Eastern University) updates
Views: 15,334 Posted By Knight
Re: SEU (Southern Eastern University) updates

I am not the attorney, i forwarded a copy of the steps interested supporters are taking..

I cleared that up way back.. I never claimed to be a attorney! I pasted a copy of what was sent to me when I was trying to get answers!!
I don't know about NOW, but it seems most of us are giving you the benefit of the doubt. Thanks Bro

[notofworks]

I don't know about NOW, but it seems most of us are giving you the benefit of the doubt. Thanks Bro


.....and it just gets goofier!!

[Hoovie]

Now, I do understand that this could have been a quote, and originated from someone other than Knight. Reference is repeatedly made to "we" which might indicate the individual was portending to speak for the SEU institution.

[Praxeas]

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=934287&postcount=145




This is a response to the unwarranted comments, posted on the Apostolic Friends Forum regarding Mr. Lee Stoneking.

Firstly, the individual who posted such comments appears to be an individual that consistently posts comments on websites about other individuals, so it should not come as a surprise to see such conduct. In addition to this, it appears that the person has also violated the policy of the Apostolic Friends Forum, by using the forum as a means to circulate his or her propaganda.

Secondly, in speaking with the former Chair of SEU’s committee recently in Europe, communication was provided that verified that Mr. Stoneking was awarded an honorary Ph.D., from SEU, prior to the appointment of Mr. Johnson as Director. Mr. Johnson is currently being apprised of the matter by the former Chair of SEU in Europe. Mr. Stoneking has not been in any dialogue or direct communication with the author of such defamatory comments, who call’s themselves Baron.

As Mr. Stoneking’s British lawyer, we are currently looking into some additional matters regarding the underlying policies of the Apostolic Friends Forum, since we have been provided with confirmation and verification of Mr. Stoneking’s credentials and status. We anticipate that this resolves any misunderstanding.
Mr. Stoneking was honored by these schools for his lifetime work (SEU, ICW) he paid no funds or fees. you should print a retraction of your statements.
I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt that he was passing on what someone else said. Yes he should have made that clear in the post you are quoting but Im willing to accept his explanation

[ManOfWord]

Pastor, I believe this story is just beginning to be told.

Then we'll look forward to......"the REST of the story!" :D

[MrMasterMind]

Should we recap the attempts at intimidation over the last 2 days?

You guys actually started without me? LOL

[MrMasterMind]

So there we have it....a tale of lies, deceit, power etc. The only thing missing are the sexcapades which I hope don't make it on these pages! Does that about cover it? :D

Not even close, there is info coming in by the first of the week which has the possibility of being so explosive as to make everything that has happened here so far seem like a firecracker by comparison

[notofworks]

I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt that he was passing on what someone else said. Yes he should have made that clear in the post you are quoting but Im willing to accept his explanation


I didn't say I wasn't willing to accept it!!!!!!!! Good grief, what's the deal????? I was making the point that if it had been left alone, this all probably would have gone away!! It's a good lesson to learn. Arrrgghhhh.

[MrMasterMind]

So if Knight hadn't shown up here this thread might have fizzled 60 pages ago, huh?

NOTE TO SELF: If one of your heroes is criticized on AFF, just keep your mouth shut.

It was actually even more, helping was Anderson suggesting that AFF had been closed down by "legal" action from his "lawyer" friend. And that legal action would be taken against others.

Perfect storm of events. Bottom line KB crossed some lines and is NOT going to enjoy the consequences.

[Praxeas]

I didn't say I wasn't willing to accept it!!!!!!!! Good grief, what's the deal????? I was making the point that if it had been left alone, this all probably would have gone away!! It's a good lesson to learn. Arrrgghhhh.
Sooooo. You accept his explanation?

[notofworks]

It was actually even more, helping was Anderson suggesting that AFF had been closed down by "legal" action from his "lawyer" friend. And that legal action would be taken against others.

Perfect storm of events. Bottom line KB crossed some lines and is NOT going to enjoy the consequences.


Should be interesting....in a sad sort of way.

[notofworks]

Sooooo. You accept his explanation?


I made a point. That's all I wanted to do then, it's all I want to do now. If you'd like to comment on the point, fine. If not, draw whatever conclusion you wish.

[DAII]

A Washington Post story about what is considered the biggest diploma mill cartel in history... The St. Regis group has it's grip on many ... and as reported it appears Boora and C. Bradley Carey have links to it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/30/AR2008073002300.htm

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDaS5bHfjOI/AAAAAAAAAms/CE8PoMn1Nss/regis2.png

Graphic from: http://www.aacrao.org/transfer/George_Gollin.pdf

[Jason B]

:pullhair Really how is someone supposed to keep up with this thread, everytime I check AFF its 20 pages longer.

[MrMasterMind]

What ???? just when you think it is over.

DELETE the thread? Is that to cover his own backside, or to delete the heartfelt oops I didn't know my HONORARY degree was bogus in lieu of an apology post?

As far as legal action- "they" apparently do not realize that through pure happenstance AFF has enough lawyers with real bar cards to populate a small law firm. Not only would he be buried with the counter suit, but he could be facing criminal charges for having someone call Baron pretending to be a member of the DC bar.

Perhaps before KB does even more damage to his own reputation he should quit trying to play legal guru and concentrate on Contract Administrator and writing Oneness books on the side?

Too bad he does not have a pastor that can rein him in. Just sayin

bump

[DAII]

Once again the founder of the bible school in which Art Wilson, Kulwant Boora are listed as professors .... the Institue ...

Dr. C Bradley Carey makes the list of professors ... on this 2003 forum post ... (http://forums.degreeinfo.com/accreditation-discussions-ra-detc-state-approval-unaccredited-schools/10456-saint-regis-faculty-changes.html)
Boora would join the faculty ... it appears in 2004.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDaUiUXLlsI/AAAAAAAAAm0/qCTK6uMy_CY/regis3.png

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDZt2f5EZnI/AAAAAAAAAmk/nNyOA5EFD9s/stregis.png

[Baron1710]

Once again the founder of the bible school in which Art Wilson, Kulwant Boora are listed as professors .... the Institue ...

Dr. C Bradley Carey makes the list of professors ... on this 2003 forum post ...
Boora would join the faculty ... it appears in 2004.

http://www.aacrao.org/transfer/George_Gollin.pdf

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDZt2f5EZnI/AAAAAAAAAmk/nNyOA5EFD9s/stregis.png

Dan Drudge...this just in...

Art Wilson was more a victim of what happened as a result of his association with KSB than an accomplice.

He has personally apologized to me and this board.

[MrMasterMind]

Dan Drudge...this just in...

Art Wilson was more a victim of what happened as a result of his association with KSB than an accomplice.

He has personally apologized to me and this board.

From everything I have heard Wilson is a good man.

[Praxeas]

I made a point. That's all I wanted to do then, it's all I want to do now. If you'd like to comment on the point, fine. If not, draw whatever conclusion you wish.
So you don't accept it? Just wondering :bigbaby

[rgcraig]

Excellent courtroom dialogue DA and Baron!

Thanks for the recap!

[Pastor Keith]

Very interesting thread!

[RevDWW]

Can us unpapered folks get a summation?

[rgcraig]

Can us unpapered folks get a summation?

Page 115 - Post 1149 Recap

[drummerboy_dave]

Very interesting thread!Totally!

I just finished reading it in it's entirety......what a drama......no wonder the UPC don't need TV. :toofunny

[RevDWW]

Can us unpapered folks get a summation?

Page 115 - Post 1149 Recap
Thanks!

Buying something is not the same as earning it.......:grampa

[Jason B]

Not even close, there is info coming in by the first of the week which has the possibility of being so explosive as to make everything that has happened here so far seem like a firecracker by comparison
It was actually even more, helping was Anderson suggesting that AFF had been closed down by "legal" action from his "lawyer" friend. And that legal action would be taken against others.

Perfect storm of events. Bottom line KB crossed some lines and is NOT going to enjoy the consequences.

What are you getting at MMM? If a Christian (Baron) was threatened or decieved, or attacked by people whether they call themselves Chrsitians or not, it isn't right to try and exact revenge. The Bible is quite clear that we are better of to suffer wrong for Christ sake, than to go about trying to destroy each other.

I believe the points have been hammered home, there are men with questionable/fraudulant "degrees" among us. Their credibility is highly questionable (if not completely irrepairable). They have been exposed, and by all evidences seem at BEST to have been duped by unimaginable gullibility and ignorance, and at WORST, well, I'd rather not even say it. Lets just hope for the best case scenario.


In any event, I think that the work of Baron, Pel, and DAII has proved their case beyond any reasonable doubt, that should be retribution enough for any threats received.

[MrMasterMind]

What are you getting at MMM? If a Christian (Baron) was threatened or decieved, or attacked by people whether they call themselves Chrsitians or not, it isn't right to try and exact revenge. The Bible is quite clear that we are better of to suffer wrong for Christ sake, than to go about trying to destroy each other.

I believe the points have been hammered home, there are men with questionable/fraudulant "degrees" among us. Their credibility is highly questionable (if not completely irrepairable). They have been exposed, and by all evidences seem at BEST to have been duped by unimaginable gullibility and ignorance, and at WORST, well, I'd rather not even say it. Lets just hope for the best case scenario.


In any event, I think that the work of Baron, Pel, and DAII has proved their case beyond any reasonable doubt, that should be retribution enough for any threats received.
LOL there are no threats. The first post you quoted was actually nothing more than Dan has said... tip of the iceberg.

The latter was in response to a post talking about the events that came together which brought the thread to where it is.

There is no "retribution", but yes more facts are being uncovered, and the three you mentioned aren't the only ones putting them together.

[Maximilian]

Page 115 - Post 1149 Recap

Started in JA Anderson's post about an Apologetics Conference... around p22. Then it carried over here and got REALLY hairy.

[DAII]

Once again the founder of the bible school in which Art Wilson, Kulwant Boora are listed as professors .... the Institue ...

Dr. C Bradley Carey makes the list of professors ... on this 2003 forum post ... (http://forums.degreeinfo.com/accreditation-discussions-ra-detc-state-approval-unaccredited-schools/10456-saint-regis-faculty-changes.html)
Boora would join the faculty ... it appears in 2004.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDaUiUXLlsI/AAAAAAAAAm0/qCTK6uMy_CY/regis3.png

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDZt2f5EZnI/AAAAAAAAAmk/nNyOA5EFD9s/stregis.png
The actual archived pages of the St. Regis University Diploma Mill site ... dated Feb. 5th 2004.

Boora and Bradley are listed as professors/mentors.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040205152817/http://www.saintregisuniversity.ac/faculty.htm

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_rjZMUSTyomU/TDbDnz7iu7I/AAAAAAAAAnI/YWMLuJrGsT4/regis4.png

Many don't realize sites don't just always disappear.

[mizpeh]

Just remember, nothing will be said to him by organizational authorities.

However, if he put on a pair of knee shorts he would be called before a tribunal faster than a bat out of purgatory.Jeremiah 5: 30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; 31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

[pelathais]

You may want to check by letter as well.

There is also a disciplined directory. Which perhaps you accessed.

I searched Singh got 2 names

He's just not listed in ILEX, neither with a surname of Singh nor Boora.

[pelathais]

Not even close, there is info coming in by the first of the week which has the possibility of being so explosive as to make everything that has happened here so far seem like a firecracker by comparison

I have a standing concern: In "Knight's" post where he at least claimed to be "Lee Stoneking's British lawyer..." he shifts to the plural "we" and now offers the suggestion that he was never claiming to be that lawyer himself.

Clearly, Knight (who has identified himself as Pastor A. Wilson) was under the impression that he at least had a "British lawyer" by his side. Also, JN Anderson was in telephone contact with Kulwant "Kal" Boora and came away with the idea that he had just spoken to the lawyer who was "going to bring AFF down."

Has Kal Boora represented himself as Lee Stoneking's legal council in these matters? If so, until Bro. Stoneking speaks up - we can reasonably proceed under the assumption that Kal Boora does indeed represent Lee Stoneking's interests in these matters.

We have telephone conversations with Bro. Boora representing himself as actually being in England - only an hour or two after he was contacted by cell phone in Michigan. The Concorde is no longer flying, so I don't see how this would be possible.

Brother Stoneking: Is Kalwant "Kal" Boora your legal representative?

May we proceed according to his claims that he is?

[MrMasterMind]

I have a standing concern: In "Knight's" post where he at least claimed to be "Lee Stoneking's British lawyer..." he shifts to the plural "we" and now offers the suggestion that he was never claiming to be that lawyer himself.

Clearly, Knight (who has identified himself as Pastor A. Wilson) was under the impression that he at least had a "British lawyer" by his side. Also, JN Anderson was in telephone contact with Kulwant "Kal" Boora and came away with the idea that he had just spoken to the lawyer who was "going to bring AFF down."

Has Kal Boora represented himself as Lee Stoneking's legal council in these matters? If so, until Bro. Stoneking speaks up - we can reasonably proceed under the assumption that Kal Boora does indeed represent Lee Stoneking's interests in these matters.

We have telephone conversations with Bro. Boora representing himself as actually being in England - only an hour or two after he was contacted by cell phone in Michigan. The Concorde is no longer flying, so I don't see how this would be possible.

Brother Stoneking: Is Kalwant "Kal" Boora your legal representative?

May we proceed according to his claims that he is?

Pel pal, personally I believe the evidence is clear and convincing that Boora acted sua sponte. Either he felt he needed to take it on himself to protect Stoneking and others or he was trying to defend himself and livelihood derived from various diploma mills.

KB according to his own CV cannot practice law in the US since all jurisdictions here require law school. What is fascinating is from the inception he/they claimed to be protecting LS’s British interests. Really? What nexus is there to posts on this forum?

IF indeed it turns out that KB is not and has not been licensed even in England that would indeed be huge, since he has held out in numerous times, places and manners that he is.

Whether LS’s legal rep or not, if he is behind the call to Baron claiming to an investigating member of the DC bar, according to Griffin that may have even crossed the line to criminal.

Even without that it appears he has at least been linked to several criminal enterprises, ie diploma mills shut down by various governmental entities. (Hardly the person I would want defending my credentials)

As an aside in this truly bizarre episode, a collateral damage could be his ability to be taken seriously as a Oneness doctrinal author.

One can be an addict and still be an excellent attorney, a wife abuser but excellent doctor, but when it comes to theology unfortunately the character of the author becomes inextricably intertwined with his character.

The saga continues....

[pelathais]

...


In any event, I think that the work of Baron, Pel, and DAII has proved their case beyond any reasonable doubt, that should be retribution enough for any threats received.

To my knowledge no one has even contemplated "retribution" nor brought it up. What 3M seems to be referring to is the same thing that you've mentioned above, Jason; the "proof."

There are still some loose ends - for example, we've had contact with someone who has claimed to be Lee Stoneking's legal representative. However else Bro. Stoneking may feel about "the forum world" it would be great to get some clarification on this matter from him personally.

Have Lee Stoneking's legal representatives contacted us? Is this something Brother Stoneking initiated? Is this something that Brother Stoneking is even aware of?

Brother Stoneking has no publicly available contact information, so it's not like anyone can ask him. We are dependent upon him to answer. If someone called you and said that they were "my lawyer" you would certainly be in your rights to ask me "What's up with that?"

[DAII]

In an attempt to be fair with Kal Boora's Curriculum Vitae ...

The Hertfordshire degree was apparently acquired through their GDL (distance learning) program ...

He is pictured on page 13 of one of their publications ....

http://www.herts.ac.uk/fms/documents/schools/law/FINAL%20Timeline%202009.pdf

By all accounts this Hertfordshire seems to be a legitimate institution.

Questions still open about the Sutton Coffield degree which is not listed as a bachelors ... and then also Staffordshire University where he claims a bachelor's with honors.

[pelathais]

Pel pal, personally I believe the evidence is clear and convincing that Boora acted sua sponte. Either he felt he needed to take it on himself to protect Stoneking and others or he was trying to defend himself and livelihood derived from various diploma mills.

KB according to his own CV cannot practice law in the US since all jurisdictions here require law school. What is fascinating is from the inception he/they claimed to be protecting LS’s British interests. Really? What nexus is there to posts on this forum?

IF indeed it turns out that KB is not and has not been licensed even in England that would indeed be huge, since he has held out in numerous times, places and manners that he is.

Whether LS’s legal rep or not, if he is behind the call to Baron claiming to an investigating member of the DC bar, according to Griffin that may have even crossed the line to criminal.

Even without that it appears he has at least been linked to several criminal enterprises, ie diploma mills shut down by various governmental entities. (Hardly the person I would want defending my credentials)

As an aside in this truly bizarre episode, a collateral damage could be his ability to be taken seriously as a Oneness doctrinal author.

One can be an addict and still be an excellent attorney, a wife abuser but excellent doctor, but when it comes to theology unfortunately the character of the author becomes inextricably intertwined with his character.

The saga continues....

I agree with your analysis here, however I still think that there's a ball in Lee Stoneking's court to respond as well. Brother Boora will have to answer for his calls and misrepresentations himself, but LS has - at least in my mind - an obligation to respond as well when someone has claimed to be representing him in a legal manner.

While looking for a Boora in the ILEX database I came across several cases of misconduct by "Legal Executives." One particular case involved a Legal Executive who signed some papers on behalf of her client instead of having that client sign as required. She essentially misrepresented herself as acting on behalf of her client without her client's knowledge. That got her a two year suspension.

Can Lee help our understanding here? Was this entire AFF board threatened with being "shut down" by his legal representatives as it was stated on the AMF board?

[DAII]

2004 FLASHBACK

The links and relationship Kal Boora has with P. Bradley Carey go back some time ...

Here is Kal Boora's Curriculum Vitae when he and Bradley Carey were professors at the diploma mill cartel St. Regis University ... and also the Institute for Christian Works ...

http://web.archive.org/web/20041217030543/www.wnho.net/bio-kboora.htm

He is listed here as part of the board of trustees of the Institute and a "member of the UPCI".

Also listed in the 2004 faculty staff and alumni: Arthur C. Wilson

http://web.archive.org/web/20041207104909/www.icwseminary.org/alumni.htm

I must believe Art knew Kal for at least the past 6 years.

[ManOfWord]

"Who is that man behind the curtain?" Never mind, the man behind the curtain, pay attention the IMAGE. "But the man behind the curtain is pulling all of the levers!" Never mind what you see, pay attention to the IMAGE. "But it doesn't seem right!" It doesn't have to seem right. Just pay attention to the IMAGE! The IMAGE is all powerful and will help you and save you and take care of you! AND if you can just get the sick and afflicted to the IMAGE, they will all be healed and delivered. "Yes, but what about the man behind the curtain?" Never mind the man behind the curtain. It's irrelevant to your needs. Ask no questions. Submit to the IMAGE!

The above certainly can be used with many names and faces....many of you can probably fill them in based upon your experiences and circumstances. But the mantra is the same. Ignore the facts and submit. However, when one gets outside and pulls the curtain back and sees the "little" man who seems all powerful, a certain innocence is lost. At that point, it is easy for cynicism to set in and trust no one any further, especially those in authority. But that is not an acceptable way of life either.

What needs to happen is for honesty, integrity and transparency to rise to the forefront in leadership. Trust can be rebuilt but not from "commands." Healthy skepticism is not a lack of faith...it is smart and necessary to keep from being scammed. Can it go too far? Certainly! And that is the struggle we always face. A struggle for balance. However, when individuals or groups spend a horrendous amount of time trying keep certain doors closed when questions are asked, don't expect the ones who have seen the man behind the curtain to walk away. They will try the knob. They will pick the lock. They will take the hinges off the door or they may even break the door down! Why? To get IN? Absolutely not! To let truth OUT! It's not a robbery! It's a rescue! Jesus said truth would set us free. Let us, none of us EVER be afraid of the truth, no matter what it reveals. :D

[Standards]

Can somebody tell me whether or not Bro. Stoneking is preaching the HMH doctrine everywhere he goes? I'm wondering if he only preaches it when he's asked to. It's one thing to preach something one time and only repreach it when you have requests to do so. It's quite another to preach it everywhere without the permission of the pastor. Personally, I would not allow him to preach in our church if he used the pulpit to promote this false doctrine. I repect Bro. Stoneking as an elder, but he is in error.

[jfrog]

2004 FLASHBACK

The links and relationship Kal Boora has with P. Bradley Carey go back some time ...

Here is Kal Boora's Curriculum Vitae when he and Bradley Carey were professors at the diploma mill cartel St. Regis and also the Institute for Christian Works ...

http://web.archive.org/web/20041217030543/www.wnho.net/bio-kboora.htm

He is listed here as part of the board of trustees of the Institute and a "member of the UPCI".

Also listed in the 2004 faculty staff and alumni: Arthur C. Wilson

http://web.archive.org/web/20041207104909/www.icwseminary.org/alumni.htm

I must believe Art knew Kal for at least the past 6 years.

Does that fact change anything in relation to his apology and distancing of himself from these institutions and individuals?

[ManOfWord]

Can somebody tell me whether or not Bro. Stoneking is preaching the HMH doctrine everywhere he goes? I'm wondering if he only preaches it when he's asked to. It's one thing to preach something one time and only repreach it when you have requests to do so. It's quite another to preach it everywhere without the permission of the pastor. Personally, I would not allow him to preach in our church if he used the pulpit to promote this false doctrine. I repect Bro. Stoneking as an elder, but he is in error.

Sorry, can't respect an elder in error. :D

[DAII]

Does that fact change anything in relation to his apology and distancing of himself from these institutions and individuals?

Arthur Corley Wilson goes back to the Institute, Boora and Bradley as early as 2003 ...
http://web.archive.org/web/20031003022113/http://icwseminary.org/alumni.htm

His distancing with the Institute is premised on essentially being "duped".

[jfrog]

A. Wilson goes back to the Institute, Boora and Bradley as early as 2003 ...
http://web.archive.org/web/20031003022113/http://icwseminary.org/

His distancing with the Institute is premised on essentially being "duped".

It's hard to imagine someone being duped for 7 years.

[pelathais]

...
http://web.archive.org/web/20041207104909/www.icwseminary.org/alumni.htm

I must believe Art knew Kal for at least the past 6 years.

Okay, okay. I've uncovered the REAL reason behind DA2's behavior here. Just check out the sorts of things that Kal Boora's "World Natural Health Organization" have uncovered!

http://web.archive.org/web/20041223202637/www.wnho.net/chemtrailnews.htm

IT'S THE GOVIMINT! They've been spraying chemicals in our skies that make us want to go to college and earn a degree.

* * * *
Brothers and Sisters of the Apostolic Faith - can we PLEASE not get hooked up with these crazed nuts? These are jet contrails. You can stand there and watch the plane fly overhead. Argh!

[DAII]

Okay, okay. I've uncovered the REAL reason behind DA2's behavior here. Just check out the sorts of things that Kal Boora's "World Natural Health Organization" have uncovered!

http://web.archive.org/web/20041223202637/www.wnho.net/chemtrailnews.htm

IT'S THE GOVIMINT! They've been spraying chemicals in our skies that make us want to go to college and earn a degree.

* * * *
Brothers and Sisters of the Apostolic Faith - can we PLEASE not get hooked up with these crazed nuts? These are jet contrails. You can stand there and watch the plane fly overhead. Argh!

Dr. P. Bradley Carey was a regular caller it appears on the Art Bell Coast to Coast show ... some links forthcoming.

[DAII]

Scroll to middle of page ... to find this web author speaking about Carey's role in the Art Bell show:

http://pat-macken.tripod.com/

[DAII]

Find Dr. P. Bradley Carey's other online interviews on Demons and Eschatology here :

http://www.theedgeam.com/guests/pastguest3.htm

[MrMasterMind]

I agree with your analysis here, however I still think that there's a ball in Lee Stoneking's court to respond as well. Brother Boora will have to answer for his calls and misrepresentations himself, but LS has - at least in my mind - an obligation to respond as well when someone has claimed to be representing him in a legal manner.

While looking for a Boora in the ILEX database I came across several cases of misconduct by "Legal Executives." One particular case involved a Legal Executive who signed some papers on behalf of her client instead of having that client sign as required. She essentially misrepresented herself as acting on behalf of her client without her client's knowledge. That got her a two year suspension.

Can Lee help our understanding here? Was this entire AFF board threatened with being "shut down" by his legal representatives as it was stated on the AMF board?

I totally understand where you are coming from, I do also believe that several individuals supposedly from the Stoneking camp have claimed he had no knowledge.

While a denial from the man himself would be great, I can also understand in light of the HMH mania which permeates this forum from time to time why he would hesitate to have direct communication here of any sort. Especially in this case where there is zero evidence of him directing or even approving of any of these events.

Having said that, yeah it would be nice if he would either join us or at least send correspondence!

As to the shutting down of AFF, it was Anderson and Wilson who threatened that legal action was in play. While they can both now claim to be duped by KB (and they probably were) it still stands that for some reason they thought that was a good thing. What were they thinking? I don’t like what you are saying so I will sue you- is not a valid cause for legal action.

[DAII]

It's hard to imagine someone being duped for 7 years.

There are spouses that claim just that ....

Trying to help you out here Art. :thumbsup

[pelathais]

Scroll to middle of page ... to find this web author speaking about Carey's role in the Art Bell show:

http://pat-macken.tripod.com/

Things the Oneness message DOES NOT need:

1. UFO aliens who built the Pyramid of Cheops at Giza as an "altar" for Shem/Melchizedek to use and to keep his disposable razors sharp.

2. Anything that has been discussed on the Art Bell/Greg Noury show unless it was when Dr. Michael Heiser was on to refute the above.

3. The "Face on Mars" being a monument built by the "Fallen Angels" (See Marvin Treece).

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4114/4776795639_3a1185214c.jpg

[DAII]

Things the Oneness message DOES NOT need:

1. UFO aliens who built the Pyramid of Cheops at Giza as an "altar" for Shem/Melchizedek to use and to keep his disposable razors sharp.

2. Anything that has been discussed on the Art Bell/Greg Noury show unless it was when Dr. Michael Heiser was on to refute the above.

3. The "Face on Mars" being a monument built by the "Fallen Angels" (See Marvin Treece).

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4114/4776795639_3a1185214c.jpg
The relationship of KB and AW with Dr. P. Bradley Carey is inexplicable ... I can't fathom why they maintained links to him so long.

[jfrog]

The relationship of KB and AW with Dr. P. Bradley Carey is inexplicable ... I can't fathom why they maintained links to him so long.

Maybe AW can explain?

[pelathais]

Find Dr. P. Bradley Carey's other online interviews on Demons and Eschatology here :

http://www.theedgeam.com/guests/pastguest3.htm

I would be curious as to how this view of "demonology" affected Dr. Carey's judgement when he "dressed up like a girl" and committed felony acts on a child as reported by the Anacortes Police Department.

http://bryanth798.tripod.com/

"Dr." Carey still has an open case in Skagit County from this 1993, time period.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4121/4776810607_7d69107d79_b.jpg

He has a case that was closed in the same jurisdiction after he apparently spent some time paying off a fee for "Victim Assessment."

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4098/4776828295_f60651e1dc_b.jpg

[James Griffin]

Maybe AW can explain?

To be fair, I have helped people who got into serious trouble by allowing their names to be placed as board of directors and such without taking the time to see who and what was actually behind the honor being bestowed.

Unless there is evidence he actually taught, or received other than token remuneration I would give him a pass on everything but poor judgment, which he has publicly, numerously, and passionately acknowledged and apologized.

[Baron1710]

To be fair, I have helped people who got into serious trouble by allowing their names to be placed as board of directors and such without taking the time to see who and what was actually behind the honor being bestowed.

Unless there is evidence he actually taught, or received other than token remuneration I would give him a pass on everything but poor judgment, which he has publicly, numerously, and passionately acknowledged and apologized.

The evidence seems to be pointing in this direction as to Bro. Wilson. It seems the the most he is guilty of here is poor judgment as to the character of KSB.

[DAII]

By all accounts Kal Boora is a Legal Executive with ILEX

This email excerpt that I received from ILEX explains why he is not listed on the online directory as well:

Dear Mr Alicea

I can confirm that Kulwant Singh Boora is a Fellow of the Institute of Legal Executives and further that this means he is a Legal Executive Lawyer in the UK.

The directory on the website unfortunately does not include all Fellows, as in the past they have had the option to “opt out” of appearing on it: this option is in the process of being removed.

Regards

LN (name edited)


ILEX Professional Standards Ltd (IPS)
Kempston Manor
Kempston
Bedford MK42 7AB
Tel: 01234 845773
Fax: 01234 840989

[pelathais]

The evidence seems to be pointing in this direction as to Bro. Wilson. It seems he the most he is guilty of here is poor judgment as to the character of KSB.

I agree. On a "going forward" sort of note, I am interested in seeing more information about the web of "colleges" and other "degree" granting institutions that are involved here and I'd like more information on the background of the major players.

It seems that there has been an attempt to target OP preachers and solicit them for fees in return for these bogus degrees. The fellowship has a right to know who these players are.

[MrMasterMind]

I agree. On a "going forward" sort of note, I am interested in seeing more information about the web of "colleges" and other "degree" granting institutions that are involved here and I'd like more information on the background of the major players.

It seems that there has been an attempt to target OP preachers and solicit them for fees in return for these bogus degrees. The fellowship has a right to know who these players are.

Perhaps Oneness scholars are more sensitive to trying to appear legitimate and credentialed, but I am not sure they were necessarily targeted. I believe this crossed denominational/theological boundaries, and is and shall be exacerbated by the confusion in accrediting agencies for Theological programs since they cannot be "regionally accredited" like most programs can.

But clue number one, if you pay money and get a doctorate degree in the mail 90 days later it isn't legit.

[pelathais]

By all accounts Kal Boora is a Legal Executive with ILEX

This email excerpt that I received from ILEX explains why he is not listed on the online directory as well:

Dear Mr Alicea

I can confirm that Kulwant Singh Boora is a Fellow of the Institute of Legal Executives and further that this means he is a Legal Executive Lawyer in the UK.

The directory on the website unfortunately does not include all Fellows, as in the past they have had the option to “opt out” of appearing on it: this option is in the process of being removed.

Regards

LN (name edited)

...

So, this does add some light to the question of why he would pretend to be calling from the UK to make his ... uh, "threats," only moments after answering a telephone in the United States.

He knows he has the ability to "act as a lawyer" in the UK but not here. My question still stands, Bro. Stoneking: Was Kal acting as your legal representative when he called members of this board?

[DAII]

The evidence seems to be pointing in this direction as to Bro. Wilson. It seems he the most he is guilty of here is poor judgment as to the character of KSB.

I believe Brother Wilson and Lee Stoneking exercised poor judgment in trusting Kal who was a trustee with Dr. P. Bradley, also.

It would appear in my opinion and sources they were brought into the ICW and SEU by Kulwant and fell prey to the ease and allure of these mills.

[TheLegalist]

Sorry, can't respect an elder in error. :D

Wow... so anyone teaching Baptism for remission of sins... No respect! hmmm interesting!

[pelathais]

Perhaps Oneness scholars are more sensitive to trying to appear legitimate and credentialed, but I am not sure they were necessarily targeted. I believe this crossed denominational/theological boundaries, and is and shall be exacerbated by the confusion in accrediting agencies for Theological programs since they cannot be "regionally accredited" like most programs can.

But clue number one, if you pay money and get a doctorate degree in the mail 90 days later it isn't legit.

Yes, and in fact the majority of "victims" would appear to have nothing to do with the Oneness movement. However, Kal Boora appears to be deeply embedded in this web of "schools" and he has several very direct connections with the Oneness fellowships, apparently being a Oneness writer himself.

He also appears to have some financial interests in promoting these "degrees." He is listed as serving as a "consultant" and "faculty" at several different diploma mills and other schools. When he "reaches out" with the offer of a "credential" or "degree" he is dragging a huge labyrinth of interests with him and a lot of this has involved criminal activity on the part of the schools and their administrators.

[pelathais]

Wow... so anyone teaching Baptism for remission of sins... No respect! hmmm interesting!

Take it outside, TL. :blah

[TheLegalist]

Take it outside, TL. :blah

hey... he talks about acceptance and then says that. Just bringing up a point he seems to be contradictive of in the past! Not arguing theology but a position he made HERE concerning this. It's a principle point!

[DAII]

Another excerpt from my communications with ILEX. It discusses how one becomes an EL.

"Before being admitted as a Fellow, members must have five years of “qualifying employment”... This essentially means that they need to have been working in legal practice for five years... In the UK, most legal activities can only be carried out by solicitors or their employees, therefore generally most Fellows will obtain their five years qualifying employment working in a solicitors firm."

Of course, this means one can legitimately become an EL without a law degree.
It is part of the Old World tradition.

[James Griffin]

Another excerpt from my communications with ILEX. It discusses how one becomes an EL.

"Before being admitted as a Fellow, members must have five years of “qualifying employment”... This essentially means that they need to have been working in legal practice for five years... In the UK, most legal activities can only be carried out by solicitors or their employees, therefore generally most Fellows will obtain their five years qualifying employment working in a solicitors firm."

Of course, this means one can legitimately become an EL without a law degree.
It is part of the Old World tradition.

It was actually possible to do the same thing in some states until a few decades ago.

[Baron1710]

It was actually possible to do the same thing in some states until a few decades ago.

Virginia still allows it, but you still have to pass their bar.

[James Griffin]

Virginia still allows it.

Virginia is still a state? who in their right mind would set up a law practice there?

:ursofunny

PS California will allow to sit for the bar with degrees from un-ABA accredited correspondence law schools.

[Baron1710]

Virginia is still a state? who in their right mind would set up a law practice there?

:ursofunny

PS California will allow to sit for the bar with degrees from un-ABA accredited correspondence law schools.

You are correct sir about Cali, also the reason their bar passage rate for all takers remains around 50%. A lesson for those who think accrediting doesn't matter.


I misspoke about Virginia...it is not a state...it is a commonwealth.

[Baron1710]

Interesting tidbit about bar takers in Cali.

Graduates of ABA schools have a first-time pass rate of approximately 69%, while graduates of non-ABA schools pass at a rate of about 25% on the first try.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Bar_of_California#cite_ref-Mintz.2C_1A_34-1

[James Griffin]

You are correct sir about Cali, also the reason their bar passage rate for all takers remains around 50%. A lesson for those who think accrediting doesn't matter.


I misspoke about Virginia...it is not a state...it is a commonwealth.

Personally I think there are other reasons for CA dismal pass rate, but I will withhold from opining them in public. LOL

[Timmy]

You are correct sir about Cali, also the reason their bar passage rate for all takers remains around 50%. A lesson for those who think accrediting doesn't matter.


I misspoke about Virginia...it is not a state...it is a commonwealth.

It still gets a star on the flag, though. :lol

[James Griffin]

Interesting tidbit about bar takers in Cali.

Graduates of ABA schools have a first-time pass rate of approximately 69%, while graduates of non-ABA schools pass at a rate of about 25% on the first try.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Bar_of_California#cite_ref-Mintz.2C_1A_34-1

Benefits to an accredited program, who would have thunk it?

[Baron1710]

It still gets a star on the flag, though. :lol

Benefits to an accredited program, who would have thunk it?

And what do you know?...The governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia went to an ABA accredited law school.

Not sure what that has to do with anything but thought I would throw it in.

[DAII]

Benefits to an accredited program, who would have thunk it?

According to Doctor P. Bradley Carey, accreditation is DECEPTION:

http://www.icwseminary.org/deception.htm