SEU (Southern Eastern University) updates

[Elizabeth]

So salvation to a covenant person comes without sacrifice?

Well I was totally with you on the pathetic remark, but you rather lost me on the rest of your post.

[DAII]

You do realize I really don't care what you think... right? Interesting that you just negated true repentance. Nice!

Riiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggggght .... and you negate grace, judaizer.

No object lesson here ... move along.

[TheLegalist]

want to back up that use of term... antinomian!

[pelathais]

You do realize I really don't care what you think... right? Interesting that you just negated true repentance. Nice!

TL, take it outside. There are other threads where you can drone on about this tired theme. This thread is current - and it's been an interesting a lively discussion.

[DAII]

want to back up that use of term... antinomian!

Not unless you are going to insist on my circumcision and take away my pork chops

[TheLegalist]

Eliz... the point was that when he stands before God and thinks he has right standing without sacrifice. God slaps him with... No, not like your degree!

[TheLegalist]

DA... hmm false accusation. Typical!

[TheLegalist]

Pel... I will honour your request. I just responded to DA!

[DAII]

notofworks,

I realize that every question hasn't been answered and there are some stones left unturned. However, I think we should allow the man to retreat graciously, if at all possible. I don't want to see anyone or their reputation destroyed--do you? An apology and a removal of the offending information is adequate, in my opinion.

You say it deserves more than a "Oops, I didn't know that" retraction, so what would comprise "more?"
This is not the path of least resistance, NOW .... but also believe you allow for gracious retreat ... and count the lessons learned and assess the big picture...

No doubt this is a stepping stone.

As my wife says .... baby steps.

[Maximilian]

So salvation to a covenant person comes without sacrifice?

Are you seriously attempting a thread hijack? :ursofunny

Salvation comes with sacrifice for the believer (this is what discipleship is all about). Salvation does not come THROUGH your own personal sacrifice. It comes through the sacrifice of Jesus. His sacrifice was perfect. You can't add to that.

[DAII]

Are you seriously attempting a thread hijack? :ursofunny

Salvation comes with sacrifice for the believer (this is what discipleship is all about). Salvation does not come THROUGH your own personal sacrifice. It comes through the sacrifice of Jesus. His sacrifice was perfect. You can't add to that.

Jesus + Legalist = Salvation

He's a mini Jesus

[Hoovie]

notofworks,

I realize that every question hasn't been answered and there are some stones left unturned. However, I think we should allow the man to retreat graciously, if at all possible. I don't want to see anyone or their reputation destroyed--do you? An apology and a removal of the offending information is adequate, in my opinion.

You say it deserves more than a "Oops, I didn't know that" retraction, so what would comprise "more?"

This is not the path of least resistance, NOW .... but also believe you allow for gracious retreat ... and count the lessons learned and assess the big picture...

No doubt this is a stepping stone.

As my wife says .... baby steps.

No NO! What is right is right. Shylock wants a pound of flesh!

[Ferd]

Come on guys, you got me on your side in this thread, ignor the leagalist and return to the topic at hand....


can somone call Captian Hair and get him to retreat as well?

[Maximilian]

Jesus + Legalist = Salvation

He's a mini Jesus

Sheesh. Something.

While I don't fully and comfortably accept the official "Doctrine of Election," this is what happens when you get too far away from it!

Discipleship and the awesome gift of Grace and salvation given to us get confused too often.

[Maximilian]

Come on guys, you got me on your side in this thread, ignor the leagalist and return to the topic at hand....


can somone call Captian Hair and get him to retreat as well?

:ursofunny

[Baron1710]

So should we expect to this Edit soon:

Before

High School Graduate
Seminary Graduate
Graduated from Apostolic Bible Institute, St. Paul, Minnesota in 1967 as Honor Student of the Year and awarded Scholarship Award Certificate.
Degrees:

Bachelor of Theology in Apostolic Studies
Apostolic Bible College - St. Paul, Minnesota
Doctor of Christian Philosophy in Christian Education - Institute for Christian Works Bible College and Seminary - South Carolina Campus
Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) in Divinity
Southern Eastern University
Administrative Address in the UK (SEU)
9 Unity Street, Bristol, BS1 5HH
Signed: John C. Stacey-Hibbert & Chairman (SEU)


After

Kindergarten Graduate
Middle School Graduate
High School Graduate
Graduated from Apostolic Bible Institute, St. Paul, Minnesota in 1967 as Honor Student of the Year and awarded Scholarship Award Certificate.
Degrees:

Bachelor of Theology in Apostolic Studies
Apostolic Bible College - St. Paul, Minnesota

[Ferd]

I do thank all the players here for helping me survive work this afternoon. A good portion of my day was taken up by a very long conference call centering around what to name an upgrade.

yea. what to name the stupid thing. I almost suggested my dead cats name...


and speaking of names, how dumb is Southern Eastern? That had to be a joke when they came up with it!

[notofworks]

This is not the path of least resistance, NOW .... but also believe you allow for gracious retreat ... and count the lessons learned and assess the big picture...

No doubt this is a stepping stone.

As my wife says .... baby steps.


I typed up 7 responses. I'm not posting any of them. I'll leave it at that.:)

[DAII]

I typed up 7 responses. I'm not posting any of them. I'll leave it at that.:)

PM incoming.

[Ferd]

So should we expect to this Edit soon:

Before

High School Graduate
Seminary Graduate
Graduated from Apostolic Bible Institute, St. Paul, Minnesota in 1967 as Honor Student of the Year and awarded Scholarship Award Certificate.
Degrees:

Bachelor of Theology in Apostolic Studies
Apostolic Bible College - St. Paul, Minnesota
Doctor of Christian Philosophy in Christian Education - Institute for Christian Works Bible College and Seminary - South Carolina Campus
Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) in Divinity
Southern Eastern University
Administrative Address in the UK (SEU)
9 Unity Street, Bristol, BS1 5HH
Signed: John C. Stacey-Hibbert & Chairman (SEU)


After

Kindergarten Graduate
Middle School Graduate
High School Graduate
Graduated from Apostolic Bible Institute, St. Paul, Minnesota in 1967 as Honor Student of the Year and awarded Scholarship Award Certificate.
Degrees:

Bachelor of Theology in Apostolic Studies
Apostolic Bible College - St. Paul, Minnesota


should there be mention of ballet in there? or is that just rumor?

[Ferd]

I typed up 7 responses. I'm not posting any of them. I'll leave it at that.:)

You are a good man Charlie Brown... Please consider praying for them....if all else fails see the video i linked in the veggie thread.

[Maximilian]

Briefly back to UGST vs. AST (aka UPC vs. WPF)

From the AST website:
http://apostolicschooloftheology.org/ast/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=76&Itemid=121

Credit for Prior Learning

Students may fulfil degree requirements by successfully completing courses offered at Hope In-ternational University. Students may also secure credit for prior learning.

Undergraduate students are limited to two course substitutions within the Major Course Sequence through transfer credits. Students may not fulfil Major requirements through credit by examination or other types of credit for prior learning. Otherwise SGPS accepts an unlimited number of credits for prior learning within the bounds of the School’s residency requirements (18 units for an A.A. degree, 30 units for a B.S. degree, and all but 9 units for a master’s degree or credential) and the policies outlined below.

Decisions regarding the awarding of credit for prior learning are made by the Assistant Registrar for SGPS in consultation with the Dean. The Assistant Registrar provides students with transcript evaluations and other documents specifying the type and amount of credit granted. Policies go-verning credit for prior learning appear below:
.....
Credit for Business and Industry Training. Business courses are evaluated according to the ACE National Guide to Educational Credit for Training Programs and/or the National Program on Non-College Sponsored Institutions (PONSI). Students must submit all pertinent documentation to the Director of Academic and Student Services for evaluation.

Credit for Other Life Experiences: The Independent Learning Review (ILR). The SGPS faculty recognizes that many students come to the University with college-level competencies that have been developed experientially or attained outside the traditional college classroom. Students who enroll in SGPS degree programs may obtain college credit for such competencies by suc-cessfully completing an Independent Learning Review (ILR).


Has anyone heard of AST offering undergrad students "honorable bachelor degrees" to populate their Master's program with students? Who is the SGPS and is that a group on campus at each school that works with the registrar? Does Hope offer Bachelor's degrees for "life experience?" Isn't a Bachelor degree the starting blocks for higher education? Liberal arts, introductory coursework, all the things you need to succeed in Higher Learning. Anyone ever heard of an "honorable bachelor's degree?"

[DAII]

should there be mention of ballet in there? or is that just rumor?
Thespian Arts

[Maximilian]

should there be mention of ballet in there? or is that just rumor?

He speaks "some french," enjoys long walks... yes, I think ballet should be included in his academic resume.

[Hoovie]

Thespian Arts

Now , do we really need to go there??
:toofunny

[Hoovie]

I predict the bio will just disappear entirely.

[bishoph]

Ah! They are operating under some sort of license from Hope University? So they are not accredited, technically, but Hope is and bestows its favor upon Apostolic somethingoranother?

Yes, but they claimed accredition prior to Hope. I remember hearing about this several years back.

Not sure how they worked that out with Hope. It's surprising to say the least! Hope is probably wanting to beef up with theology department registration? Not sure. They aren't known for theology, that's for sure.

While I cannot/do not "officially" speak "for" AST....I do have some knowledge of their structure and accreditation. AST originally was accredited via a partnership with Patten University (Oakland, CA) through which students of AST received credits with Patten and received two diplomas, one from AST and one from Patten.

Hope University was began in 1928 as Pacific Bible Seminary (Church of Christ if I recall) and received accreditation in 1969. (WASC http://registration.wascsenior.org/institutions/affiliation.aspx?accessID=79) Just as many universities have several schools under their umbrella (i.e. school of medicine, school of law etc.) a little over a year ago AST became Hope's "School of Theology." As such it was the first fully accredited Apostolic college/university.

AMAZING!

Okay, I tried the link. I also put in schools I thought for sure would have accredition, and they aren't coming up. Maybe through a different accredition association? But if Hope explicitly says WASC, you'd think that was accurate. They could get in SERIOUS trouble for advertising with WASC if they aren't.

I dunno. Going to the school directory at http://www.acswasc.org/directory_search.cfm.

I can't find Apostolic School of Theology nor Hope International.

Hope comes right out on their website claiming accreditation with the WASC. Following the links from Hope's website to the directory at WASC turns up nothing. They do not appear to be accredited with the Western Association any longer, if they were in the past.

Hope also links to the Association for Biblical Higher Education. The ABHE does NOT list them as "Accredited" but as "Programmatic."

"Programmatic" is defined as: http://www.abhe.org/accreditation

"Programmatic Accreditation- Review and recognition of particular programs within an institution that currently holds accreditation with another recognized accrediting body."

BUT... that "other recognized accrediting body" no longer lists Hope International.

Oh, what a wicked web we weave...

If anyone can provide some insight and help for me here, I'd really appreciate it. Just from the websites at the Apostolic School of Theology and Hope International - and following THEIR links to the respective accrediting bodies - These guys ain't accredited.

See above info that proves that Hope and AST are accredited and legit!


What's the difference between the two WASC orgs? Or are they the same org with two different websites? Gonna look at that.

Thanks for the tip Max.

Would it be fair to say that the Apostolic School of Theology has it's accreditation "piggy-back" fashion through Hope Int'l - who has their accreditation "piggy-back fashion" through CCCU?

Someone mentioned multilevel marketing... whew!

No multi level marketing here.....Hope is affiliated with CCCU but maintains accreditation through WASC....and AST is now Hope's "School of Theology"

[Baron1710]

I predict the bio will just disappear entirely.

Perhaps. That would be the easy way out. No explanation, no regrets just delete and move on to the next town.

[Timmy]

This thread was started 5 days ago, and it has over 8500 views. That has to be a new record!

9,000 now. 500 views in just over an hour.

:waving

[rgcraig]

Perhaps. That would be the easy way out. No explanation, no regrets just delete and move on to the next town.

Hopefully, more will happen. Acceptance that the Ph.D. is not legit and take it off his website and DO NOT use in any form.

And hopefully, an apology to you from the FAKE DC barman!

[DAII]

Hopefully, more will happen. Acceptance that the Ph.D. is not legit and take it off his website and DO NOT use in any form.

And hopefully, an apology to you from the FAKE DC barman!

I think there MUST be an apology ... non-negotiable.

[notofworks]

PM incoming.

Thank you.:)

[Maximilian]

While I cannot/do not "officially" speak "for" AST....I do have some knowledge of their structure and accreditation. AST originally was accredited via a partnership with Patten University (Oakland, CA) through which students of AST received credits with Patten and received two diplomas, one from AST and one from Patten.

Hope University was began in 1928 as Pacific Bible Seminary (Church of Christ if I recall) and received accreditation in 1969. (WASC http://registration.wascsenior.org/institutions/affiliation.aspx?accessID=79) Just as many universities have several schools under their umbrella (i.e. school of medicine, school of law etc.) a little over a year ago AST became Hope's "School of Theology." As such it was the first fully accredited Apostolic college/university.





See above info that proves that Hope and AST are accredited and legit!




No multi level marketing here.....Hope is affiliated with CCCU but maintains accreditation through WASC....and AST is now Hope's "School of Theology"

Indeed, maybe the first fully accredited. But it was piggy-back accredition. UGST is itself, as a scholastic entity, fully accredited. That's a HUGE deal.

This is amazing that Hope offered it's theology arm to the AST guys. Again, it's known by everyone that Hope is a liberal arts school. They aren't known for theology. No other theology-focused school would do such a thing.

[Baron1710]

Hey look we have been mistaken all along...

Latest email from our friend "Dr. John Johnson"

I have just discovered that you are bogus and appear to be anti Lee Stoneking in the process you, and no doubt the authors of other recently received requests for information, have mixed up at least 2 different bodies to support you unfounded views about SEU. I doubt if you ever wished to study with SEU or anywhere else. You are asked to acknowledge, as publicly as you published, that you have deliberately tried to mislead me and that in doing so you have mixed at least two bodies to assist you, that should then be the end of the matter.

[Maximilian]

Hey look we have been mistaken all along...

Latest email from our friend "Dr. John Johnson"

I have just discovered that you are bogus and appear to be anti Lee Stoneking in the process you, and no doubt the authors of other recently received requests for information, have mixed up at least 2 different bodies to support you unfounded views about SEU. I doubt if you ever wished to study with SEU or anywhere else. You are asked to acknowledge, as publicly as you published, that you have deliberately tried to mislead me and that in doing so you have mixed at least two bodies to assist you, that should then be the end of the matter.

Someone tipped them off! :ursofunny

[Timmy]

Hey look we have been mistaken all along...

Latest email from our friend "Dr. John Johnson"

I have just discovered that you are bogus and appear to be anti Lee Stoneking in the process you, and no doubt the authors of other recently received requests for information, have mixed up at least 2 different bodies to support you unfounded views about SEU. I doubt if you ever wished to study with SEU or anywhere else. You are asked to acknowledge, as publicly as you published, that you have deliberately tried to mislead me and that in doing so you have mixed at least two bodies to assist you, that should then be the end of the matter.

Yeah, but... who's Lee Stoneking? That's what I wanna know! :lol

[DAII]

Someone tipped them off! :ursofunny

An overzealous paralegal? Tax accountant?

[Maximilian]

BishopH, in other words, AST has had the trappings of full accredition, but they themselves have not been put to the same academic rigor to make sure it's instructors, curriculum, testing, etc meet the standards. It's by way of relationship with Patten and now Hope. These colleges, in essence, are brokering out their accredition.

[DAII]

Hey look we have been mistaken all along...

Latest email from our friend "Dr. John Johnson"

I have just discovered that you are bogus and appear to be anti Lee Stoneking in the process you, and no doubt the authors of other recently received requests for information, have mixed up at least 2 different bodies to support you unfounded views about SEU. I doubt if you ever wished to study with SEU or anywhere else. You are asked to acknowledge, as publicly as you published, that you have deliberately tried to mislead me and that in doing so you have mixed at least two bodies to assist you, that should then be the end of the matter.

How vanilla is John Johnson ... I guess its more alluring than Count Grimaldi.

The identity of John Johnson and his links, if any, to this web of deception is intriguing.

[Maximilian]

Hey look we have been mistaken all along...

Latest email from our friend "Dr. John Johnson"

I have just discovered that you are bogus and appear to be anti Lee Stoneking in the process you, and no doubt the authors of other recently received requests for information, have mixed up at least 2 different bodies to support you unfounded views about SEU. I doubt if you ever wished to study with SEU or anywhere else. You are asked to acknowledge, as publicly as you published, that you have deliberately tried to mislead me and that in doing so you have mixed at least two bodies to assist you, that should then be the end of the matter.

Is Don Johnson an American? He writes in broken English.

[DAII]

Hey look we have been mistaken all along...

Latest email from our friend "Dr. John Johnson"

I have just discovered that you are bogus and appear to be anti Lee Stoneking in the process you, and no doubt the authors of other recently received requests for information, have mixed up at least 2 different bodies to support you unfounded views about SEU. I doubt if you ever wished to study with SEU or anywhere else. You are asked to acknowledge, as publicly as you published, that you have deliberately tried to mislead me and that in doing so you have mixed at least two bodies to assist you, that should then be the end of the matter.

So which two bodies did you use to assist you, Baron????

[Baron1710]

How vanilla is John Johnson ... I guess its more alluring than Count Grimaldi.

The identity of John Johnson and his links if any to this web of deception is intriguing.

Here is a bit of an email I received:

Here are a few bits from my database of diploma mills. I'm afraid that's all I can offer at this time. I strongly suspect your "John Johnson" (there's a clever alias!) is very likely Mr. Swann in another guise.

Do let me know if you learn more.

John Bear

The tidbits he had have already been posted on this website.

[Maximilian]

John Johnson. So generic. I mean, Dr. John Doe would have been just as good.

[bishoph]

BishopH, in other words, AST has had the trappings of full accredition, but they themselves have not been put to the same academic rigor to make sure it's instructors, curriculum, testing, etc meet the standards. It's by way of relationship with Patten and now Hope. These colleges, in essence, are brokering out their accredition.

First let me say that I fully agree that the stand alone accreditation of UGST is monumental and something that should be applauded.

As to the "brokering" of accreditation to AST....I think that may be true with regard to Patten.....however with Hope, AST had to fully align with the same academic guidelines as Hope with regard to professors credentials, course work, etc. Otherwise AST could endanger Hope's accreditation....which I doubt they would be willing to chance.

[DAII]

Here is a bit of an email I received:

Here are a few bits from my database of diploma mills. I'm afraid that's all I can offer at this time. I strongly suspect your "John Johnson" (there's a clever alias!) is very likely Mr. Swann in another guise.

Do let me know if you learn more.

John Bear

The tidbits he had have already been posted on this website.

Does Kal know Johnson beyond this email communication? ... is a fair question.

[Maximilian]

First let me say that I fully agree that the stand alone accreditation of UGST is monumental and something that should be applauded.

As to the "brokering" of accreditation to AST....I think that may be true with regard to Patten.....however with Hope, AST had to fully align with the same academic guidelines as Hope with regard to professors credentials, course work, etc. Otherwise AST could endanger Hope's accreditation....which I doubt they would be willing to chance.

Professor credentials (as far as having the appropriate degrees) - sure. But academic rigor (Curriculum/Professor to Student) - not so sure.

In the end, you still have faculty that is mostly in one city and church, and many students that worship together, eat together and hang out with the faculty. It's still quite incestuous that way. However, there's hope with Hope. The program grows, the participation grows, etc.

I'm very surprised that Hope allows their official theology arm to go by the name of "Apostolic School of Theology." Do they not know that those founders believer they are all going to hell in a handbasket?

[rgcraig]

Here is a bit of an email I received:

Here are a few bits from my database of diploma mills. I'm afraid that's all I can offer at this time. I strongly suspect your "John Johnson" (there's a clever alias!) is very likely Mr. Swann in another guise.

Do let me know if you learn more.

John Bear

The tidbits he had have already been posted on this website.

Interesting!

[Jermyn Davidson]

I had to stop on page 59 and will read more later.

All I can say is "Wow", in amazement and disappointment. :(


Such a let down.


As an Evangelist, is LS accountable to anyone?

The AW Pastor has people in his District to call him on the carpet, right?

And Dr. Kal??? Who is he?

[ManOfWord]

I had to stop on page 59 and will read more later.

All I can say is "Wow", in amazement and disappointment. :(


Such a let down.


As an Evangelist, is LS accountable to anyone?

The AW Pastor has people in his District to call him on the carpet, right?

And Dr. Kal??? Who is he?

LS is accountable to no one. No one tells him what to do, say or preach. He has boasted before about how independent his is and only dependent on the Holy Spirit. That's how all this crazy stuff has stood for years. Who is going to go to him? He seems untouchable, IMO. :D

[Timmy]

LS is accountable to no one. No one tells him what to do, say or preach. He has boasted before about how independent his is and only dependent on the Holy Spirit. That's how all this crazy stuff has stood for years. Who is going to go to him? He seems untouchable, IMO. :D

Isn't he a UPCI minister? Or does that not mean anything, accountability-wise?

[Hoovie]

LS is accountable to no one. No one tells him what to do, say or preach. He has boasted before about how independent his is and only dependent on the Holy Spirit. That's how all this crazy stuff has stood for years. Who is going to go to him? He seems untouchable, IMO. :D

I think not. If ten prominent ministers spoke up against the "crazy stuff" it would be as effective as disciplinary action.

[Hoovie]

Isn't he a UPCI minister? Or does that not mean anything, accountability-wise?

I don't think anyone wants licensing censure for every doctrinal deviation. As to the PhD, that can be changed and blamed on misinformation by the "university" that issued it.

[notofworks]

I think not. If ten prominent ministers spoke up against the "crazy stuff" it would be as effective as disciplinary action.



What MOW said is so true. No one can touch him. He's extremely popular with the general population of the UPC and they just want more!

At this point, he is a total hero. How can the UPC address him? They've let this go too far and there are two problems...1) He's obtained "God" status in the movement; and 2) If they "take care of him", they'll be admitting that they've let something go for years that wasn't right.

I'm afraid he's a total loose cannon at this point.

[Praxeas]

Hello all

Upon receiving this surprising information regarding these profound allegations concerning SEU and ICW I have decided that it is needful to sever ties with such institutions. I received Honorary PhD recognition through SEU through an interested contact and had no idea of its controversies. Although I transferred credits and enrolled in ICW and after many years graduated through distance learning, due to the surprised surrounding controversies, I have decided to sever all connection.
It is right to operate under high ethical standards, and I greatly apologize for any damage this has caused. I want my ministry to be one of humility and meekness. Know that I am working diligently to update my websites and info.

Regards, appreciate your prayers
I think that is a good move, step in the right direction. :thumbsup

[Timmy]

I don't think anyone wants licensing censure for every doctrinal deviation. As to the PhD, that can be changed and blamed on misinformation by the "university" that issued it.

Yeah, there's a good ole boys club in the Assembly of God, too. They stick up for each other no matter what (almost).

[Praxeas]

I know that those Aussies are an informal bunch - but I have a hard time picturing the surgeons standing there with their huge Crocodile Dundee bush knives in hand and getting ready to gut poor Lee with "Pastor Slack" in the operating theater as well, when the good pastor saves our suffering protagonist from the Fosters drinking slashers.
Could have been ICU or the Dr could have been conferring with the pastor outside

[Hoovie]

The problem is, these licensing bodies are darned if they do and darned if they don't. The organization telling folks what to preach and how to run their autonomous churches has always been a HUGE complaint.

Who here does not know a minister or two that seems to have picked up some extreme or radical thoughts along the way? Discipline them all?

[Timmy]

Just curious, is the UPCI as fad-driven as the AG? At least in my experience, pastors will pick up the latest thing, and try to replicate it. Happened a lot during the Brownsville heyday.

[Timmy]

Just curious, is the UPCI as fad-driven as the AG? At least in my experience, pastors will pick up the latest thing, and try to replicate it. Happened a lot during the Brownsville heyday.

We had a pastor who would even affect the accent and mannerisms of the last visiting evangelist, for the next several weeks! Hilarious!

[Praxeas]

www.ugst.org (http://www.ugst.org)

UGST is fully accredited!

Posted 07/06/2010 04:54PM

UGST is the only Apostolic Pentecostal graduate institution in North America to have accreditation. As such, it is the only one listed by the U.S. Department of Education (DOE) and the only one to award its own accredited master’s degrees. (See http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/ Search.aspx)
Are credits from other UPC schools transferable?

[Praxeas]

Yeah. I'm logging in there now. Should I post the thread over here?
Tell them AFF ladies with uncut hair summoned angels to counter act their ladies summoning angels and the forum is up and running find

[Praxeas]

This is PATHETIC! Taking honor for something you did not earn. God... I thought you just handed out eternal life without sacrifice....

No... not like your degree!
Yes, please everyone make a sacrifice in order to earn eternal life...a Jesus did, why not you? And on good friday don't forget to flog yourselfs so God will forgive your many sins :bliss

[DAII]

The problem is, these licensing bodies are darned if they do and darned if they don't. The organization telling folks what to preach and how to run their autonomous churches has always been a HUGE complaint.

Who here does not know a minister or two that seems to have picked up some extreme or radical thoughts along the way? Discipline them all?
This is not a pastor .... a systemic problem lies in the accountability of the office of evangelist ... and personally, imo, whether what we see in the org are public/motivational speakers who often require flat fees or the apostolic model for the office of evangelist.

There is no accountability often for these men who tour the country and world seemingly without any governance ....

Of course ... even more so when the evangelist is a single man.

[Cindy]

This is not a pastor .... a systemic problem lies in the accountability of the office of evangelist ... and personally, imo, whether what we see in the org are public/motivational speakers who often require flat fees or the apostolic model for the office of evangelist.

There is not accountability often for these men who tour the country and world seemingly without any governance ....

Of course ... even more so when the evangelist is a single man.

So there is no accountability? Do they not hold license with the organization?

[Ferd]

ferd have your wife lay her hair over the screen...and chant SEU SEU

I just saw this! I am against you!

[Praxeas]

So should we expect to this Edit soon:

Before

High School Graduate
Seminary Graduate
Graduated from Apostolic Bible Institute, St. Paul, Minnesota in 1967 as Honor Student of the Year and awarded Scholarship Award Certificate.
Degrees:

Bachelor of Theology in Apostolic Studies
Apostolic Bible College - St. Paul, Minnesota
Doctor of Christian Philosophy in Christian Education - Institute for Christian Works Bible College and Seminary - South Carolina Campus
Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) in Divinity
Southern Eastern University
Administrative Address in the UK (SEU)
9 Unity Street, Bristol, BS1 5HH
Signed: John C. Stacey-Hibbert & Chairman (SEU)


After

Kindergarten Graduate
Middle School Graduate
High School Graduate
Graduated from Apostolic Bible Institute, St. Paul, Minnesota in 1967 as Honor Student of the Year and awarded Scholarship Award Certificate.
Degrees:

Bachelor of Theology in Apostolic Studies
Apostolic Bible College - St. Paul, Minnesota
I think we should be a little more gracious in light of his last post

[tv1a]

Do you think these revelations will make a difference to the people follow LS and his Art Bell method of evangelism? What is the goal of this expose?

This is not a pastor .... a systemic problem lies in the accountability of the office of evangelist ... and personally, imo, whether what we see in the org are public/motivational speakers who often require flat fees or the apostolic model for the office of evangelist.

There is no accountability often for these men who tour the country and world seemingly without any governance ....

Of course ... even more so when the evangelist is a single man.

[Hoovie]

I think we should be a little more gracious in light of his last post

True... but do you understand Baron was referencing the LS site?

[Timmy]

I think we should be a little more gracious in light of his last post

That's LS's bio. Has he posted here?

[Hoovie]

There you have it... 10,000 views.

[Praxeas]

True... but do you understand Baron was referencing the LS site?
Eh...no :-)

Sorry :toofunny

[Timmy]

There you have it... 10,000 views.

Aw, man, I wanted to make that announcement! :ranting

[Praxeas]

That's LS's bio. Has he posted here?
I don't know...who knows :bigbaby

[Timmy]

Says 9,994 for me. You must have special admin/jedi powers.

[Hoovie]

Aw, man, I wanted to make that announcement! :ranting

Yeah, I know. But only "brothers" are afforded brotherly preference.

[Timmy]

Yeah, I know. But only "brothers" are afforded brotherly preference.

:toofunny

[Hoovie]

Says 9,994 for me. You must have special admin/jedi powers.

Your page only updates periodically. Admins see everything real time. Even what is being written in the text boxes.:bliss

[Timmy]

Your page only updates periodically. Admins see everything real time. Even what is being written in the text boxes.:bliss

:nahnah

Bet ya didn't see that comin'! :lol

[notofworks]

Your page only updates periodically. Admins see everything real time. Even what is being written in the text boxes.:bliss

I don't believe you. If you had seen all the things I've typed and then decided not to post, I'd have been long gone by now!:lol

[rgcraig]

That's LS's bio. Has he posted here?

That bio is from his website. As far as we know, LS hasn't posted here.

[Hoovie]

I don't believe you. If you had seen all the things I've typed and then decided not to post, I'd have been long gone by now!:lol

Good thing the Admin team is heavily slanted towards grace for the membership. I have been surprised, no doubt at the things you have written but, (thankfully) decided not to post.:thumbsup

[notofworks]

Good thing the Admin team is heavily slanted towards grace for the membership. I have been surprised, no doubt at the things you have written but, (thankfully) decided not to post.:thumbsup


Next thing we know, you're gonna tell us you read our PM's.:razz

[rgcraig]

Next thing we know, you're gonna tell us you read our PM's.:razz

Oh lordy - - we've been through that! There was a whole gaggle of them that thought Admins could read PM's.

[Justin]

Wow, this really went nuts.

First, Knight, I applaud your integrity.
Second, I don't think LS updates his own website, I think he has someone do it for him. So his website may change, and he may never be notified about it.

[Hoovie]

Oh lordy - - we've been through that! There was a whole gaggle of them that thought Admins could read PM's.

:bliss:bliss:bliss:bliss

I will never tell!

[TheLegalist]

Jesus + Legalist = Salvation

He's a mini Jesus

As typical a false accusation... Salvation is synergistic with monergistic source. His work of atonement realized by faithfulness.

[notofworks]

Oh lordy - - we've been through that! There was a whole gaggle of them that thought Admins could read PM's.


I also heard that you all can see us through our computers, and also see our credit card information. Any truth to that?

[StMark]

Hi everyone,

I contacted a friend of Lee's for my own personal clarification on this matter today and asked if I could share some of what was told to me.

Lee doesn’t read AFF, nor has he ever posted. There are people who have reported things being said about him ( I am not one of them) but he doesn’t ask for this information.

The British Lawyer is not Lee's lawyer and Lee never once asked him to do anything in regards to this matter. This was strictly on their own volition. Lee never asked this Lawyer (or so called Lawyer??) to ask for an apology or press charges in any way.

It's my own opinion that Lee may have been had in regards to a bogus degree. That’s the way it appears to me. However, I don't believe Lee sought out to obtain a fake credential, rather he believed (or believes) it was a real one. I am told he is leaving for Asia and will look into this matter when he returns.

These are questions that I asked because I wanted to know. I do not want to get into any long forum debates over this issue, nor do I have time to read the entire thread word for word. Most people are going to draw their own conclusions about LS and I’m not here to change that. Just thought I would share this bit of info. with you all.

[rgcraig]

I also heard that you all can see us through our computers, and also see our credit card information. Any truth to that?

Put some clothes on and then we can talk. Your MasterCard will expire in September.

[DAII]

Hi everyone,

I contacted a friend of Lee's for my own personal clarification on this matter today and asked if I could share some of what was told to me.

Lee doesn’t read AFF, nor has he ever posted. There are people who have reported things being said about him ( I am not one of them) but he doesn’t ask for this information.

The British Lawyer is not Lee's lawyer and Lee never once asked him to do anything in regards to this matter. This was strictly on their own volition. Lee never asked this Lawyer (or so called Lawyer??) to ask for an apology or press charges in any way.

It's my own opinion that Lee may have been had in regards to a bogus degree. That’s the way it appears to me. However, I don't believe Lee sought out to obtain a fake credential, rather he believed (or believes) it was a real one. I am told he is leaving for Asia and will look into this matter when he returns.

These are questions that I asked because I wanted to know. I do not want to get into any long forum debates over this issue, nor do I have time to read the entire thread word for word. Most people are going to draw their own conclusions about LS and I’m not here to change that. Just thought I would share this bit of info. with you all.

The British lawyer has some 'splainin' to do.

[DAII]

Put some clothes on and then we can talk. Your MasterCard will expire in September.

:ursofunny

[rgcraig]

Hi everyone,

I contacted a friend of Lee's for my own personal clarification on this matter today and asked if I could share some of what was told to me.

Lee doesn’t read AFF, nor has he ever posted. There are people who have reported things being said about him ( I am not one of them) but he doesn’t ask for this information.

The British Lawyer is not Lee's lawyer and Lee never once asked him to do anything in regards to this matter. This was strictly on their own volition. Lee never asked this Lawyer (or so called Lawyer??) to ask for an apology or press charges in any way.

It's my own opinion that Lee may have been had in regards to a bogus degree. That’s the way it appears to me. However, I don't believe Lee sought out to obtain a fake credential, rather he believed (or believes) it was a real one. I am told he is leaving for Asia and will look into this matter when he returns.

These are questions that I asked because I wanted to know. I do not want to get into any long forum debates over this issue, nor do I have time to read the entire thread word for word. Most people are going to draw their own conclusions about LS and I’m not here to change that. Just thought I would share this bit of info. with you all.

Thanks, St. Mark.

We know who the atty is and he's not an atty and he's made things right since he posted that.

[StMark]

The British lawyer has some 'splainin' to do.




Sounds like it!

[DAII]

Thanks, St. Mark.

We know who the atty is and he's not an atty and he's made things right since he posted that.

The "atty" or the atty's pastor?

[StMark]

Thanks, St. Mark.

We know who the atty is and he's not an atty and he's made things right since he posted that.


O that's good Renda~! :thumbsup

[Baron1710]

The British lawyer has some 'splainin' to do.



And he just left a voice mail on my phone within the last 10 minutes.

[DAII]

And he just left a voice mail on my phone within the last 10 minutes.

?????????????

[rgcraig]

The "atty" or the atty's pastor?

The atty's pastor - - however, the atty's pastor is the one that said he was the British atty, so I was addressing that. The "atty" still needs to step up to the plate and apologize to Baron!

[rgcraig]

And he just left a voice mail on my phone within the last 10 minutes.

With an apology I hope!

[notofworks]

Put some clothes on and then we can talk. Your MasterCard will expire in September.


Good grief!!! You didn't have to go there!! I'm reporting this post!!

[rgcraig]

Good grief!!! You didn't have to go there!! I'm reporting this post!!

Put some clothes on first - - no need for all of admin to be subjected to that!

[Baron1710]

With an apology I hope!

Not exactly. Just informing me that they were not pursuing charges against me.


They would like for me to delete the comments about Stoneking, Wilson, Boora, and SEU. :ursofunny

[notofworks]

Hi everyone,

I contacted a friend of Lee's for my own personal clarification on this matter today and asked if I could share some of what was told to me.

Lee doesn’t read AFF, nor has he ever posted. There are people who have reported things being said about him ( I am not one of them) but he doesn’t ask for this information.

The British Lawyer is not Lee's lawyer and Lee never once asked him to do anything in regards to this matter. This was strictly on their own volition. Lee never asked this Lawyer (or so called Lawyer??) to ask for an apology or press charges in any way.

It's my own opinion that Lee may have been had in regards to a bogus degree. That’s the way it appears to me. However, I don't believe Lee sought out to obtain a fake credential, rather he believed (or believes) it was a real one. I am told he is leaving for Asia and will look into this matter when he returns.

These are questions that I asked because I wanted to know. I do not want to get into any long forum debates over this issue, nor do I have time to read the entire thread word for word. Most people are going to draw their own conclusions about LS and I’m not here to change that. Just thought I would share this bit of info. with you all.


Mark, I'm not sure I understand how anyone could be duped into receiving a fake degree. It seems a good initial clue that a degree is fake would be a price tag with no previous degrees and no work to turn in. How is one duped in a scenario like this?

[rgcraig]

Not exactly. Just informing me that they were not pursuing charges against me.


They would like for me to delete the comments about Stoneking, Wilson, Boora, and SEU. :ursofunny

They who?

There's no need to delete any comments about them - it's facts and they all need to deal with it personally.

[Baron1710]

They who?

There's no need to delete any comments about them - it's facts and they all need to deal with it personally.

As you are more than aware I have no ability to delete this thread even if I wanted to, and the they that was specifically mentioned was Stoneking, Wilson, Boora and SEU. Funny how they all still remain connected in this phone call.

[StMark]

Mark, I'm not sure I understand how anyone could be duped into receiving a fake degree. It seems a good initial clue that a degree is fake would be a price tag with no previous degrees and no work to turn in. How is one duped in a scenario like this?

Seriously, I do not know, but the impression I got was that a lot of preachers believe this (so called) institution is legit. Your question is valid IMO.

Then again, maybe it doesn't matter to everyone? I'm just assuming.

Afterall, none of the Apostolic Bible schools are accredited or recognized by most.

[rgcraig]

As you are more than aware I have no ability to delete this thread even if I wanted to, and the they that was specifically mentioned was Stoneking, Wilson, Boora and SEU. Funny how they all still remain connected in this phone call.

I see.

[notofworks]

Put some clothes on first - - no need for all of admin to be subjected to that!


Let's switch to cheese biscuits and ribs!

[notofworks]

They who?

There's no need to delete any comments about them - it's facts and they all need to deal with it personally.


Now I'm about to change my mind about my suppressed rant.

[Mrs.Kelly]

Craziness... I think this was eye opening and really helped me to look at things in a new way. Thank you Baron for starting this thread and all the rest who dug deep and brought to light some very ugly truths.

Knight, thank you for your integrity on this matter. During the readings of these posts it was my prayer for you if this was all true to have the courage to dissociate yourself from that institution. My husband and I did go to PWC, I was very excited to hear Stoneking, but saddened to get the same message :depressed. My husband and I don't agree on the topic discussed and for the "Prophetic Word Tour" to not have anything new and "prophetic" was disheartening.

Before this thread I didn't read AFF, as I don't care for the way people get torn down(my husband Justin turned me on to this thread/board), but the love shown to Knight after his announcement that he was unaware and made things right was refreshing.

Thanks guys!:thumbsup

[notofworks]

Seriously, I do not know, but the impression I got was that a lot of preachers believe this (so called) institution is legit. Your question is valid IMO.

Then again, maybe it doesn't matter to everyone? I'm just assuming.

Afterall, none of the Apostolic Bible schools are accredited or recognized by most.

Like you said...no need to drag this out again. But even the unaccredited UPC bible schools require one to take a flippin' class, do assignments, work hard, research, take tests, etc. Numerous times we pulled "all-nighters" preparing for exams and papers that had to be written. I only received a two-year degree but it took a decent amount of money and effort.

I'm willing to listen to anything but the "I didn't know anything about it" excuse sounds like a rather sizable portion of bologna.

[Paul Harvey]

Having heard this voicemail recording myself, I believe someone really does not want this thread on the internet for personal interests that are still not known.

The British-sounding gentleman in the recording has spoken with the pronouns "we" - as in "we relinquish further action" and insisted this thread be deleted as a "noble gesture".

The caller also persisted in trying to sound like he was calling from the UK, referring to "early morning" hours at least 2 or three times.

A decision to publish this recording is being made in consultation with others.

[rgcraig]

Craziness... I think this was eye opening and really helped me to look at things in a new way. Thank you Baron for starting this thread and all the rest who dug deep and brought to light some very ugly truths.

Knight, thank you for your integrity on this matter. During the readings of these posts it was my prayer for you if this was all true to have the courage to dissociate yourself from that institution. My husband and I did go to PWC, I was very excited to hear Stoneking, but saddened to get the same message :depressed. My husband and I don't agree on the topic discussed and for the "Prophetic Word Tour" to not have anything new and "prophetic" was disheartening.

Before this thread I didn't read AFF, as I don't care for the way people get torn down(my husband Justin turned me on to this thread/board), but the love shown to Knight after his announcement that he was unaware and made things right was refreshing.

Thanks guys!:thumbsupThanks Mrs. Kelly for your post and welcome! We love Justin!

[Praxeas]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the real reason to go to a University is to gain knowledge that will help in a future career not to merely be able to say you have a Ph.d?

[Timmy]

Not exactly. Just informing me that they were not pursuing charges against me.

. . .

I can't imagine how relieved you must feel!

:toofunny

[Jeffrey]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the real reason to go to a University is to gain knowledge that will help in a future career not to merely be able to say you have a Ph.d?

I guess that depends who you ask!

[rabbiriley]

Are credits from other UPC schools transferable?

So this is word of mouth, but i can also attest to experience in knowing the other students at Urshan, but in short the answer is no.

One of the necessities to being an accredited school is only allowing a certain percentages of your students to have a degree from an unaccredited college (Thus bigger graduate schools can allow students with unaccredited degrees since it is still under the percentage maximum of "unaccredited degrees." this is why you hear many stories of students going to bible college "X" and still being able to go to graduate school.)

But since UGST is so small it can either allow 1 or 0 students from a UPC bible college. There was a rumor I heard that they allow one bible college graduate per year, but I have yet to see anything official, nor have met such a student.

I would also add that practically speaking there would be great growing pains for the UPC bible college student at UGST. I have had several friends go to UPC bible colleges and the workload demanded there and the paper requirements seem to be relatively light in contrast to my experience at a secular institution. Although, I have heard the teachers at UGST who also teach at Gateway do have higher expectations out of student assignments for the undergrads relative to the rest of the Gateway teachers (not to mention Gateway is actually making an effort at moving towards accreditation unlike it's other well known Midwestern counterpart) .

[pelathais]

Could have been ICU or the Dr could have been conferring with the pastor outside

Why exactly would a a Dr. confer with a non-family member concerning medical treatment? Lee was a "foreigner" there and had no family close by - but still, is it really customary to consult with a lay person concerning the critical care of a patient?

The whole story reads as though it were an elaborate gloss of what really happened. It also contains a great number of "couches" where the writer proclaims the "miraculous" took place while simultaneously leaving the door open for more naturalist explanations.

In other words, it's about as hyped as his "Ph.Ds".

[pelathais]

Just curious, is the UPCI as fad-driven as the AG? At least in my experience, pastors will pick up the latest thing, and try to replicate it. Happened a lot during the Brownsville heyday.

yup. But with a peculiar twist and "flavor" all of its own.

[pelathais]

Wow, this really went nuts.

First, Knight, I applaud your integrity.
Second, I don't think LS updates his own website, I think he has someone do it for him. So his website may change, and he may never be notified about it.

With respect, he's not getting what he pays for if he hires this out. The whole design and layout reeks of 1998.

I'm just sayin'. And Lee! I could make you look good while improving your image. PM me for an estimate. DA2 wants to do some Flash banners for you as well.

[pelathais]

Not exactly. Just informing me that they were not pursuing charges against me.


They would like for me to delete the comments about Stoneking, Wilson, Boora, and SEU. :ursofunny

Lame. Real lame. What did Baron even do to "offend?" He did contact Princeton concerning a completely unrelated character. He also opined along the way but never even came close to anything that Boora alleged.

One tip here as well: An AFF poster had given Baron's private cell number to Boora. This AFF poster then called Baron to "warn" him - but he refused to say who he had given Baron's number to. This strikes me as the very height of unethical conduct.

I am very disappointed with that poster. And Boora's behavior has been beyond the pale. If "Knight" is Boora's pastor then I would hope that something a bit more sincere is forthcoming from Boora.

[pelathais]

Having heard this voicemail recording myself, I believe someone really does not want this thread on the internet for personal interests that are still not known.

The British-sounding gentleman in the recording has spoken with the pronouns "we" - as in "we relinquish further action" and insisted this thread be deleted as a "noble gesture".

The caller also persisted in trying to sound like he was calling from the UK, referring to "early morning" hours at least 2 or three times.

A decision to publish this recording is being made in consultation with others.

Put everything on the table. Let's have everyone show their "cards." If we be brethren we can certainly afford to make ourselves and our intentions known to each other.

[rgcraig]

Put everything on the table. Let's have everyone show their "cards." If we be brethren we can certainly afford to make ourselves and our intentions known to each other.

I think we all know why - - but, it's a little too late now isn't it? It'd be like trying to put the Cheez Whiz back in to the can.

[MrMasterMind]

Not exactly. Just informing me that they were not pursuing charges against me.


They would like for me to delete the comments about Stoneking, Wilson, Boora, and SEU. :ursofunny

What ???? just when you think it is over.

DELETE the thread? Is that to cover his own backside, or to delete the heartfelt oops I didn't know my HONORARY degree was bogus in lieu of an apology post?

As far as legal action- "they" apparently do not realize that through pure happenstance AFF has enough lawyers with real bar cards to populate a small law firm. Not only would he be buried with the counter suit, but he could be facing criminal charges for having someone call Baron pretending to be a member of the DC bar.

Perhaps before KB does even more damage to his own reputation he should quit trying to play legal guru and concentrate on Contract Administrator and writing Oneness books on the side?

Too bad he does not have a pastor that can rein him in. Just sayin

[DAII]

What ???? just when you think it is over.

DELETE the thread? Is that to cover his own backside, or to delete the heartfelt oops I didn't know my HONORARY degree was bogus in lieu of an apology post?

As far as legal action- "they" apparently do not realize that through pure happenstance AFF has enough lawyers with real bar cards to populate a small law firm. Not only would he be buried with the counter suit, but he could be facing criminal charges for having someone call Baron pretending to be a member of the DC bar.

Perhaps before KB does even more damage to his own reputation he should quit trying to play legal guru and concentrate on Contract Administrator and writing Oneness books on the side?

Too bad he does not have a pastor that can rein him in. Just sayin
:bliss

[pelathais]

I think we all know why - - but, it's a little too late now isn't it? It'd be like trying to put the Cheez Whiz back in to the can.

That's not the metaphor I'm looking for. I say let's spread the cheez whiz on crackers and break bread.

There is still ample opportunity for Boora to do follow Knight's example and for another to clear things up with Baron about the phone calls.

Transparency, honesty and being sincere about ourselves. Those are laudable goals. Bro. Kal has the power to send this thing over the top with a gesture of goodwill and clarity.

[Ferd]

Maybe Baron or another member of the bar can speak to this but I do believe there is a legal issue (as Mr. Mastermind points out) related to impersonation of an officer of the Court?

beyond that based on the demand of "good will", i have half a mind to keep bumping this thread after its begins to fade.

NO OUTSIDER GETS TO BULLY AFF!

[*AQuietPlace*]

It's going to show up on google searches for years, any time someone googles 'southern eastern university' (dumbest name ever). That's probably one of their concerns, they don't want the truth about the "university" to be so easily found on the internet.

[Ferd]

It's going to show up on google searches for years, any time someone googles 'southern eastern university' (dumbest name ever). That's probably one of their concerns, they don't want the truth about the "university" to be so easily found on the internet.

then I will consider it my bounding duty to insure such stays the case until i get bored with it.

[*AQuietPlace*]

then I will consider it my bounding duty to insure such stays the case until i get bored with it.
Lol.

It's actually going to show up on google searches even after it's long buried.

[pelathais]

:bliss

Baron was wronged by two brothers. Those brothers have the power to make it right.

And, the bogus threats and false claims by the caller - saying they were with the Washington DC Bar Association! - Mr.Mind is right. KB opened up a huge can of worms for himself. A sincere apology and forthright candor can remedy this for him. The longer he waits, the worse it becomes for him.

This whole thing does get right to the heart of what's wrong with "us." By "us" I mean the whole OP movement. We are riven with frauds. We need forums like AFF to serve as a sounding board and a clearinghouse of information. For far too long people have been able to do what KB did with his phone calls and bully and intimidate folks who didn't have access to good information.

We have good information on KB, and the prospect of even more. I think that it is in KB's best interests to listen to his friends right now. Make a call and do the right thing.

[James Griffin]

Maybe Baron or another member of the bar can speak to this but I do believe there is a legal issue (as Mr. Mastermind points out) related to impersonation of an officer of the Court?

beyond that based on the demand of "good will", i have half a mind to keep bumping this thread after its begins to fade.

NO OUTSIDER GETS TO BULLY AFF!

It depends. In Texas depending on the circumstances, impersonating a public official or passing oneself off as a licensed attorney when you are not, could be up to a third degree felony. 2-10 years in prison and up to a $10,000 fine.

[Justin]

Wow, this really went nuts.

First, Knight, I applaud your integrity.
Second, I don't think LS updates his own website, I think he has someone do it for him. So his website may change, and he may never be notified about it.

Hi everyone,

I contacted a friend of Lee's for my own personal clarification on this matter today and asked if I could share some of what was told to me.

Lee doesn’t read AFF, nor has he ever posted. There are people who have reported things being said about him ( I am not one of them) but he doesn’t ask for this information.

The British Lawyer is not Lee's lawyer and Lee never once asked him to do anything in regards to this matter. This was strictly on their own volition. Lee never asked this Lawyer (or so called Lawyer??) to ask for an apology or press charges in any way.

It's my own opinion that Lee may have been had in regards to a bogus degree. That’s the way it appears to me. However, I don't believe Lee sought out to obtain a fake credential, rather he believed (or believes) it was a real one. I am told he is leaving for Asia and will look into this matter when he returns.

These are questions that I asked because I wanted to know. I do not want to get into any long forum debates over this issue, nor do I have time to read the entire thread word for word. Most people are going to draw their own conclusions about LS and I’m not here to change that. Just thought I would share this bit of info. with you all.

:thumbsup

[James Griffin]

Too bad he does not have a pastor that can rein him in. Just sayin

Ouch, that has to sting!

[pelathais]

then I will consider it my bounding duty to insure such stays the case until i get bored with it.

You're a real tiger, Ferd.

[rgcraig]

It depends. In Texas depending on the circumstances, impersonating a public official or passing oneself off as a licensed attorney when you are not, could be up to a third degree felony. 2-10 years in prison and up to a $10,000 fine.

WOW!!!

[MrMasterMind]

St Mark and Justin, God help anyone who takes the liberty to change my academic credentials on my personal website in reaction to an internet forum and without my knowledge or consent.

Doubt LS does it himself personally either, but come on guys. You honestly think he has people changing his site without him approving?

Get real.

[DAII]

St Mark and Justin, God help anyone who takes the liberty to change my academic credentials on my personal website in reaction to an internet forum and without my knowledge or consent.

Doubt LS does it himself personally either, but come on guys. You honestly think he has people changing his site without him approving?

Get real.

Much less if you have a world-wide ministry.

[rgcraig]

I am curious as to why some believe the truth should be avoided. If you are a true Christian, then it only makes sense to own up to the truth and make it right.

God help us to be transparent before you and your kingdom!

[pelathais]

St Mark and Justin, God help anyone who takes the liberty to change my academic credentials on my personal website in reaction to an internet forum and without my knowledge or consent.

Doubt LS does it himself personally either, but come on guys. You honestly think he has people changing his site without him approving?

Get real.

Much less if you have a world-wide ministry.

Just from the timing of the changes it does at least appear that whoever updates that Bio page either reads AFF or they have someone reading AFF for them and providing the details.

Maybe the admins should put the Google ads back up?

[ManOfWord]

Isn't he a UPCI minister? Or does that not mean anything, accountability-wise?

If one is connected, well known, entrenched, "tenured" so to speak, you're pretty much untouchable. Who would "talk" to him and would he listen? NO ONE tells LS what to do except the Holy Spirit, he has pretty much said that over the years publicly even while preaching at GC. :D

I think not. If ten prominent ministers spoke up against the "crazy stuff" it would be as effective as disciplinary action.

Problem is, Hoovie, that ain't gonna happen. I would wish no ill on anyone, but I can imagine some in the UPCI are just waiting for him to fade into the periphery so that they don't have to leave a tarnish on his ministry. :D

[pelathais]

I am curious as to why some believe the truth should be avoided. If you are a true Christian, then it only makes sense to own up to the truth and make it right.

God help us to be transparent before you and your kingdom!

Truth shall triumph. Eventually, sometimes; but triumph it will.

[Timmy]

St Mark and Justin, God help anyone who takes the liberty to change my academic credentials on my personal website in reaction to an internet forum and without my knowledge or consent.

Doubt LS does it himself personally either, but come on guys. You honestly think he has people changing his site without him approving?

Get real.

He did all the work for his Miracle page, at least.

"This page is designed, created, and written by myself personally."

http://www.leestoneking.com/My%20Miracle.htm

[pelathais]

If one is connected, well known, entrenched, "tenured" so to speak, you're pretty much untouchable. Who would "talk" to him and would he listen? NO ONE tells LS what to do except the Holy Spirit, he has pretty much said that over the years publicly even while preaching at GC. :D



Problem is, Hoovie, that ain't gonna happen. I would wish no ill on anyone, but I can imagine some in the UPCI are just waiting for him to fade into periphery so that don't have to leave a tarnish on his ministry. :D

According to StMark's post (and his source) LS is headed overseas at the moment and has suggested that he will look into this "degree scandal" when he gets back.

I'd like to be optimistic enough to think that hes open to amending himself. Others have. And, as I've said all along - Lee doesn't need these "PhD's" and stuff. He's worked hard and has been successful in his own right. He can stand on that.

And, the folks at the Urshan graduate school can help him get real legitimate degrees now.

[Baron1710]

According to StMark's post (and his source) LS is headed overseas at the moment and has suggested that he will look into this "degree scandal" when he gets back.

I'd like to be optimistic enough to think that hes open to amending himself. Others have. And, as I've said all along - Lee doesn't need these "PhD's" and stuff. He's worked hard and has been successful in his own right. He can stand on that.

And, the folks at the Urshan graduate school can help him get real legitimate degrees now.

His Itinerary is on his webpage:

July

School Of The Scriptures & CEJ

Missionary; Steve Willoughby

Singapore - July 13 - 18

_____________________________

Youth Quake

Pastor Fulton

July 22 - 23

Bastrop, Louisianna

_____________________________

Virginia Camp Meeting

District Superintendent - Jack Cunningham

July 27 - 30

_____________________________________

[DAII]

don't any of you folks have a

j-o-b?????

[DAII]

His Itinerary is on his webpage:

July

School Of The Scriptures & CEJ

Missionary; Steve Willoughby

Singapore - July 13 - 18

_____________________________

Youth Quake

Pastor Fulton

July 22 - 23

Bastrop, Louisianna

_____________________________

Virginia Camp Meeting

District Superintendent - Jack Cunningham

July 27 - 30

_____________________________________

Singapore is next week

[ManOfWord]

According to StMark's post (and his source) LS is headed overseas at the moment and has suggested that he will look into this "degree scandal" when he gets back.

I'd like to be optimistic enough to think that hes open to amending himself. Others have. And, as I've said all along - Lee doesn't need these "PhD's" and stuff. He's worked hard and has been successful in his own right. He can stand on that.

And, the folks at the Urshan graduate school can help him get real legitimate degrees now.

He may very well look into "degree-gate," but he's untouchable in the HMH scam. It plays to well into "adornment" issue. Unless there's a huge outcry from the masses, it ain't gonna happen, IMO. :D

[Baron1710]

An update on the voice mail that was supposed to be from a British attorney...


T-mobile tells me they are forbidden by law from telling me where a call originated from if it is blocked. However they would confirm that I did not have any international charges, and then he slipped and said the call originated in the United States. He did explain that if someone has a magic jack or a prepaid phone with a US number it would show that it originated in the US even if it was made from outside the US.


I report. You decide.

[Maximilian]

He may very well look into "degree-gate," but he's untouchable in the HMH scam. It plays to well into "adornment" issue. Unless there's a huge outcry from the masses, it ain't gonna happen, IMO. :D

Ahhhhhhh.... DEGREE GATE! That's it. That's what this thread should be entitled!

[DAII]

An update on the voice mail that was supposed to be from a British attorney...


T-mobile tells me they are forbidden by law from telling me where a call originated from if it is blocked. However they would confirm that I did not have any international charges, and then he slipped and said the call originated in the United States. He did explain that if someone has a magic jack or a prepaid phone with a US number it would show that it originated in the US even if it was made from outside the US.


I report. You decide.

Methinks our British national is Mr. Bean .... no relation to Verbal.

http://www.futureradio.co.uk/files/images/Mr_Bean.jpg

[Cindy]

Ahhhhh, politics.

[JN Anderson]

I am not sure if this is what some of you are tacitly trying to get across or no but I did give John's phone number to KB. I would probably do it again. I would do it for John too if KB was on here going through his credentials. If you want to dig into these types of issues about people's lives then you shouldn't have any problem with them being able to contact you. After all, it is the truth we want right? :)

[Baron1710]

I am not sure if this is what some of you are tacitly trying to get across or no but I did give John's phone number to KB. I would probably do it again. I would do it for John too if KB was on here going through his credentials. If you want to dig into these types of issues about people's lives then you shouldn't have any problem with them being able to contact you. After all, it is the truth we want right? :)

Since you brought it up JN.

You refused to tell me who you gave the number to. Not only would you not give me his name you would not give me any contact info. You said this was because "He asked you not to." So don't come on here and pretend you have been upright and honest in this.

[MrMasterMind]

Try and give the boy and out and he just jumps back in waist deep, sigh.

[JN Anderson]

Some of you will be known "by these things". You will understand that more as this unfold. Personally, I am praying that I haven't offended God in anyways and I hope you are doing the same. The wrath of man is one thing but the wrath of God is another. It doesn't always come right away either. Some of these men, despite their faults, are men of God. Let's be careful.

[DAII]

I am not sure if this is what some of you are tacitly trying to get across or no but I did give John's phone number to KB. I would probably do it again. I would do it for John too if KB was on here going through his credentials. If you want to dig into these types of issues about people's lives then you shouldn't have any problem with them being able to contact you. After all, it is the truth we want right? :)

Then why go on AMF and boast of legal action right after?

If you wanted the truth ... would you reciprocate if Baron had asked you who the lawyer was seeking action? I would if a friend asked.

[pelathais]

Singapore is next week

Good. He has some time to address our questions and then fly out to Singapore with a renewed vigor knowing that he has confirmed his relationship among the brethren here stateside.

[DAII]

Good. He has some time to address our questions and then fly out to Singapore with a renewed vigor knowing that he has confirmed his relationship among the brethren here stateside.

Don't evangelists go days and weeks in advance to do outreach to those who need the evangelion ... or good news?

[MrMasterMind]

Then why go on AMF and boast of legal action right after?

If you wanted the truth ... would you reciprocate if Baron had asked you who the lawyer was seeking action?

Since you brought it up JN.

You refused to tell me who you gave the number to. Not only would you not give me his name you would not give me any contact info. You said this was because "He asked you not to." So don't come on here and pretend you have been upright and honest in this.

Apparently not.

[Cindy]

This just keeps getting sadder.

[pelathais]

I am not sure if this is what some of you are tacitly trying to get across or no but I did give John's phone number to KB. I would probably do it again. I would do it for John too if KB was on here going through his credentials. If you want to dig into these types of issues about people's lives then you shouldn't have any problem with them being able to contact you. After all, it is the truth we want right? :)

Since you brought it up JN.

You refused to tell me who you gave the number to. Not only would you not give me his name you would not give me any contact info. You said this was because "He asked you not to." So don't come on here and pretend you have been upright and honest in this.

That "truth" has to go both ways, JN. And, giving Boora the URL would have sufficed for him to be able to answer any questions that have come up about his ministry and claims. He could then have chimed in and cleared this all up - or made it worse. But he could have chimed right in.

Giving out a cell phone number to a third party stranger is generally considered uncool - at best.

[rgcraig]

I am not sure if this is what some of you are tacitly trying to get across or no but I did give John's phone number to KB. I would probably do it again. I would do it for John too if KB was on here going through his credentials. If you want to dig into these types of issues about people's lives then you shouldn't have any problem with them being able to contact you. After all, it is the truth we want right? :)

Since you brought it up JN.

You refused to tell me who you gave the number to. Not only would you not give me his name you would not give me any contact info. You said this was because "He asked you not to." So don't come on here and pretend you have been upright and honest in this.

:foottap

:feedback

[JN Anderson]

Since you brought it up JN.

You refused to tell me who you gave the number to. Not only would you not give me his name you would not give me any contact info. You said this was because "He asked you not to." So don't come on here and pretend you have been upright and honest in this.

John, I am not tying to "pretend" anything. I don't need too for you or anyone else. You need to let this sink in slowly. You were poking into alot of people's business. It is only right, given you are crucifying them here, that they know who their detractors are and be able to contact them. What happened from there with the DC bar call had nothing to do with me.

[JN Anderson]

That "truth" has to go both ways, JN. And, giving Boora the URL would have sufficed for him to be able to answer any questions that have come up about his ministry and claims. Giving out a cell phone number to a third party stranger is generally considered uncool - at best.

I did give the link. I am sorry if it seems "uncool" but I think this thread could be called "uncool" too. :)

[MrMasterMind]

John, I am not tying to "pretend" anything. I don't need too for you or anyone else. You need to let this sink in slowly. You were poking into alot of people's business. It is only right, given you are crucifying them here, that they know who their detractors are and be able to contact them. What happened from there with the DC bar call had nothing to do with me.

It apparently had everything to do with you, since when does questioning credentials that someone posts online constitute poking into their business?

Back away slowly from the keyboard, you are only hurting yourself.

[rgcraig]

Some of you will be known "by these things". You will understand that more as this unfold. Personally, I am praying that I haven't offended God in anyways and I hope you are doing the same. The wrath of man is one thing but the wrath of God is another. It doesn't always come right away either. Some of these men, despite their faults, are men of God. Let's be careful.

I believe we are all "men/women of God"........

[DAII]

Apparently not.

Transparency was not the agenda here ... someone was rooting for an outcome that will not come about.

[DAII]

I believe we are all "men/women of God"........

A royal priesthood ... veil taken away ... priesthood of all believers.

[Ferd]

You're a real tiger, Ferd.

nah, im really just a cuddly teddy bear.

I do have an issue with bullies. its almost pathalogical.

[DAII]

John, I am not tying to "pretend" anything. I don't need too for you or anyone else. You need to let this sink in slowly. You were poking into alot of people's business. It is only right, given you are crucifying them here, that they know who their detractors are and be able to contact them. What happened from there with the DC bar call had nothing to do with me.

If ... ifs and buts were candy and nuts ...
what a wonderful Christmas it would be.

[rgcraig]

John, I am not tying to "pretend" anything. I don't need too for you or anyone else. You need to let this sink in slowly. You were poking into alot of people's business. It is only right, given you are crucifying them here, that they know who their detractors are and be able to contact them. What happened from there with the DC bar call had nothing to do with me.

It had EVERYTHING to do with you - you gave Boora the number.

Also, you don't have to "poke" into people's business when it all right there on a public venue. What you mean to say is - gather available info and connect the dots. Sorry people actually can think for themselves.

[pelathais]

I did give the link. I am sorry if it seems "uncool" but I think this thread could be called "uncool" too. :)

This thread is a vital and necessary element for our fellowship as a whole. These fraudulent "degrees" and false claims need to be cleaned out now. How would you like to have to carry all of this forward in your ministry as a Oneness apologist?

How would you like to have to sit there while Marvin Arnold's "history" is thrown in your face and you are required to answer for that mess? How would you like to sit in a public debate and have to answer for the fake degrees and other fraud that our "scholars" and "leaders" have touted?

Let's clean up our act. By helping out you are only doing yourself a huge favor.

[JN Anderson]

It had EVERYTHING to do with you - you gave Boora the number.

Also, you don't have to "poke" into people's business when it all right there on a public venue. What you mean to say is - gather available info and connect the dots. Sorry people actually can think for themselves.

You're a hypocrite. This forum facilitates the same thing daily.

[JN Anderson]

It had EVERYTHING to do with you - you gave Boora the number.

Also, you don't have to "poke" into people's business when it all right there on a public venue. What you mean to say is - gather available info and connect the dots. Sorry people actually can think for themselves.

Everything? Get real. Did I go to SEU? Did I give them degrees? Please

[pelathais]

nah, im really just a cuddly teddy bear.

I do have an issue with bullies. its almost pathalogical.

Me too.

[DAII]

You're a hypocrite. This forum facilitates the same thing daily.

WHOA. James your streed cred has dropped.

[Baron1710]

:foottap

:feedback

Well Since JN has made it public I guess it wouldn't hurt for him to explain his contacts with KAl and or Wilson and the fact that he passed on my information to them. I have never hid my identity on here, however the way he went about it was underhanded.

I did not call anyone and pretend to be someone I was not. I did not threaten anyone with lawsuits and formal bar complaints.

[rgcraig]

You're a hypocrite. This forum facilitates the same thing daily.

Excuse me?

And you know me well enough to come to that conclusion?

Just how am I a hypocrite?

[JN Anderson]

This thread is a vital and necessary element for our fellowship as a whole. These fraudulent "degrees" and false claims need to be cleaned out now. How would you like to have to carry all of this forward in your ministry as a Oneness apologist?

How would you like to have to sit there while Marvin Arnold's "history" is thrown in your face and you are required to answer for that mess? How would you like to sit in a public debate and have to answer for the fake degrees and other fraud that our "scholars" and "leaders" have touted?

Let's clean up our act. By helping out you are only doing yourself a huge favor.

I dont' have a problem with this in principle Pel. You know this. I just think to play drama queen over a phone number given the nature and content of this thread is absurd.

[DAII]

Well Since JN has made it public I guess it wouldn't hurt for him to explain his contacts with KAl and or Wilson and the fact that he passed on my information to them. I have never hid my identity on here, however the way he went about it was underhanded.

I did not call anyone and pretend to be someone I was not. I did not threaten anyone with lawsuits and formal bar complaints.

Or spread false information about a forum closing.

[MrMasterMind]

It apparently had everything to do with you, since when does questioning credentials that someone posts online constitute poking into their business?

Back away slowly from the keyboard, you are only hurting yourself.

It had EVERYTHING to do with you - you gave Boora the number.

Also, you don't have to "poke" into people's business when it all right there on a public venue. What you mean to say is - gather available info and connect the dots. Sorry people actually can think for themselves.

You're a hypocrite. This forum facilitates the same thing daily.

Well there goes the rest of your credibility. Call it a day son. You are hurting your own ministry at this point.

[DAII]

I dont' have a problem with this in principle Pel. You know this. I just think to play drama queen over a phone number given the nature and content of this thread is absurd.

I see youR TRUE COLORS SHINING THROUGH

[ManOfWord]

Truth needs no defense. Only when something is veiled does it need defended. When the veil is removed, it is not difficult to see what is there. That is the power of public forum. It is all here for everyone to read and decide. Most people on this forum are not lemmings and really do think for themselves. AND their IQ is probably above room temperature!

Legitimate questions deserve honest answers and not threatening phone calls in which the callers are blatantly lying about their identity. This kind of behavior is normal in politics and this type of political behavior is too common among the "radical right" in the UPCI, from my experiences. :D

[rgcraig]

Everything? Get real. Did I go to SEU? Did I give them degrees? Please

You said the DC bar call had nothing to do with you -- that's where I said it had everything to do with you since you gave Boora the phone #.

Follow the flow of the conversation.

[JN Anderson]

Well Since JN has made it public I guess it wouldn't hurt for him to explain his contacts with KAl and or Wilson and the fact that he passed on my information to them. I have never hid my identity on here, however the way he went about it was underhanded.

I did not call anyone and pretend to be someone I was not. I did not threaten anyone with lawsuits and formal bar complaints.

I did not pretend anything. When we talked you knew who I was. I have never met KB in person but I do enjoy his books.

[Justin]

John, I am not tying to "pretend" anything. I don't need too for you or anyone else. You need to let this sink in slowly. You were poking into alot of people's business. It is only right, given you are crucifying them here, that they know who their detractors are and be able to contact them. What happened from there with the DC bar call had nothing to do with me.

No one is being crucified! It strikes me as odd that you would compare Baron revealing the truth on a few people as "crucifying".

Would you feel just as strongly if Baron had uncovered shady actions of a Catholic Priest or someone else outside of your circle of peers?

[pelathais]

John, I am not tying to "pretend" anything. I don't need too for you or anyone else. You need to let this sink in slowly. You were poking into alot of people's business. It is only right, given you are crucifying them here, that they know who their detractors are and be able to contact them. What happened from there with the DC bar call had nothing to do with me.

Baron and the rest of us were not "poking into alot of people's business." We were all looking at the public claims made by people operating in the public arena.

All of the information that has been posted is publicly and freely available.

The only private information that was ever given out was when you gave out Baron's cell phone number. Instead of boasting that you would do that again - you should examine your spirit. You wouldn't even tell him who you gave the number to - THUS - YOU! participated in the fraud that followed and the apparently criminal misrepresentations that were made in that phone call.

YOU could have quickly defused that that situation, or at least mitigated it. But instead you chose to participate in the fraud - unknowingly, I would say; but you ended you associating yourself with some very bad actors.

[DAII]

I did not pretend anything. When we talked you knew who I was. I have never met KB in person but I do enjoy his books.

Books about the Truth?

How ironic.

[JN Anderson]

Or spread false information about a forum closing.

Yes, and I apologized on here and AMF.

[JN Anderson]

Books about the Truth?

How ironic.

What have you written? Please don't say magic hair. :)

[DAII]

Yes, and I apologized on here and AMF.

Please show me the link ... was it one of those ... oops I got duped apologies?

[JN Anderson]

Well there goes the rest of your credibility. Call it a day son. You are hurting your own ministry at this point.

MrMasterMind, get this straight. My ministry does not revolve around this forum nor yourself. My ministry revolves around the will of God.

[JN Anderson]

Please show me the link ... was it one of those ... oops I got duped apologies?

Go search it DA. You have proven your abilities on this thread. :)

[DAII]

What have you written? Please don't say magic hair. :)
Bro, this is the problem with your brand of apologetics. It falls like a deck of cards when questioned ... You defend what needs no defense .... Truth

[DAII]

MrMasterMind, get this straight. My ministry does not revolve around this forum nor yourself. My ministry revolves around the will of God.
The will of God to ensure one of the good fellas keeps his rep even if its through deception.

[ManOfWord]

MrMasterMind, get this straight. My ministry does not revolve around this forum nor yourself. My ministry revolves around the will of God.

It would appear to be the will of God to do things above reproach. I think you stepped into something you're trying to get off your shoe! :D

[rgcraig]

Please show me the link ... was it one of those ... oops I got duped apologies?

Maybe he means this - - it was on the God Has Spoken thread

This discussion is out of my league. My field is religion and theology. I am sorry I was ever involved. I will be trying to stay away from this discussion for awhile.

[JN Anderson]

No one is being crucified! It strikes me as odd that you would compare Baron revealing the truth on a few people as "crucifying".

Would you feel just as strongly if Baron had uncovered shady actions of a Catholic Priest or someone else outside of your circle of peers?

No sir. A pedophile is not in the same league as a person with a degree from a diploma mill. We are not real sure if this is something deeper than we know and a few guys are being taken on these types of deals.

[DAII]

Maybe he means this - - it was on the God Has Spoken thread

Sorry he got involved.

[pelathais]

I dont' have a problem with this in principle Pel. You know this. I just think to play drama queen over a phone number given the nature and content of this thread is absurd.

You participated and conspired to hide the identity of a caller (Boora) who went on to misrepresent himself as a member of the Washington DC Bar Association.

You then went on another forum and crowed about how a "lawyer" was going to bring down AFF. The whole affair involved misrepresentation and deceit.

Boora and the others made the fraudulent claims that fueled this thread. They publicly deceived the brethren with regard to their credentials. Exposing that fraud by linking to news stories and even police and court records is a service to Oneness community at large.

You, by your actions, have sought to obfuscate and even facilitate the deception. I trusted you, Bro. I spoke up for you all along the way. Please don't let me down.

[JN Anderson]

Bro, this is the problem with your brand of apologetics. It falls like a deck of cards when questioned ... You defend what needs no defense .... Truth

Please explain further...what is my brand of apologetics DA?

[MrMasterMind]

MrMasterMind, get this straight. My ministry does not revolve around this forum nor yourself. My ministry revolves around the will of God.

And its effectiveness is greatly tempered by YOUR actions.


Your reputation has been wounded at your hand today James

[ManOfWord]

No sir. A pedophile is not in the same league as a person with a degree from a diploma mill. We are not real sure if this is something deeper than we know and a few guys are being taken on these types of deals.

So, how "smart" does one have to be to be "taken" in a deal like this? I would think that a person "smart" enough to get a PhD would be "smart" enough to sniff out a fake, unless it was just too tempting. :D

[rgcraig]

JN Anderson - you should have listened to your friend and your wife.

[JN Anderson]

You participated and conspired to hide the identity of a caller (Boora) who went on to misrepresent himself as a member of the Washington DC Bar Association.

You then went on another forum and crowed about how a "lawyer" was going to bring down AFF. The whole affair involved misrepresentation and deceit.

Boora and the others made the fraudulent claims that fueled this thread. They publicly deceived the brethren with regard to their credentials. Exposing that fraud by linking to news stories and even police and court records is a service to Oneness community at large.

You, by your actions, have sought to obfuscate and even facilitate the deception. I trusted you, Bro. I spoke up for you all along the way. Please don't let me down.

I am not condoning or trying to hide anything these guys have done concerning the degrees. It's a shame if its true because I have to debate Trinitarians and what great ammo this will be when they learn of it. Esp if it is linked to me. I have always tried to go to good schools. I have spent thousands on my education at Liberty. I don't want to see others cheat the process with a free ride, trust me.

I just think the deal with the phone number is blown out of proportion. Maybe I am wrong.

[rgcraig]

I am not condoning or trying to hide anything these guys have done concerning the degrees. It's a shame if its true because I have to debate Trinitarians and what great ammo this will be when they learn of it. Esp if it is linked to me. I have always tried to go to good schools. I have spent thousands on my education at Liberty. I don't want to see others cheat the process with a free ride, trust me.

I just think the deal with the phone number is blown out of proportion. Maybe I am wrong.

What was your purpose in giving out the phone number - maybe that can assist in deciding if it was a wrong motive.

And, you haven't explained why I'm a hypocrite.

[JN Anderson]

So, how "smart" does one have to be to be "taken" in a deal like this? I would think that a person "smart" enough to get a PhD would be "smart" enough to sniff out a fake, unless it was just too tempting. :D

I don't know if anyone is taken. I am just saying that in this situation what if someone did think they were getting a legit degree and they weren't.

[pelathais]

No sir. A pedophile is not in the same league as a person with a degree from a diploma mill. We are not real sure if this is something deeper than we know and a few guys are being taken on these types of deals.

Yet one of the guys giving out the fake degrees was arrested and charged as a pedophile and for flee from prosecution in that case. His case is still open.

[rgcraig]

I don't know if anyone is taken. I am just saying that in this situation what if someone did think they were getting a legit degree and they weren't.

Then they do as hopefully Wilson has done - stop using it and take it off his credentials. Fairly simple.

[jfrog]

I don't know if anyone is taken. I am just saying that in this situation what if someone did think they were getting a legit degree and they weren't.

Then burn them at the stake for their own stupidity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?

[pelathais]

I am not condoning or trying to hide anything these guys have done concerning the degrees. It's a shame if its true because I have to debate Trinitarians and what great ammo this will be when they learn of it. Esp if it is linked to me. I have always tried to go to good schools. I have spent thousands on my education at Liberty. I don't want to see others cheat the process with a free ride, trust me.

I just think the deal with the phone number is blown out of proportion. Maybe I am wrong.

That's progress. :thumbsup

[JN Anderson]

What was your purpose in giving out the phone number - maybe that can assist in deciding if it was a wrong motive.

And, you haven't explained why I'm a hypocrite.

My purpose was to put the two together on the phone. KB said he was going to call. I told John the same day as well. I wasnt' giving it to KB to "go get dirt" but to call John and get the situation straight. Its a mess and its absurd.

I am sorry and I apologize for what happened after I gave the number. I felt it was a good thing to do instead of taking shots at each other over a forum.

[JN Anderson]

I have already lost friends over this thing. Some folks won't even talk to me now. I was not trying to gain anything because I surely lost instead of gaining.

[jfrog]

My purpose was to put the two together on the phone. KB said he was going to call. I told John the same day as well. I wasnt' giving it to KB to "go get dirt" but to call John and get the situation straight. Its a mess and its absurd.

I am sorry and I apologize for what happened after I gave the number. I felt it was a good thing to do instead of taking shots at each other over a forum.

:thumbsup

[pelathais]

Then burn them at the stake for their own stupidity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?

How about if we just allow them to burn their "degrees" and to disassociate themselves from the whole fraudulent mess?

And then they can seek out a course toward a real degree as JN has done and as so many other have done.

[rgcraig]

My purpose was to put the two together on the phone. KB said he was going to call. I told John the same day as well. I wasnt' giving it to KB to "go get dirt" but to call John and get the situation straight. Its a mess and its absurd.

I am sorry and I apologize for what happened after I gave the number. I felt it was a good thing to do instead of taking shots at each other over a forum.

I would like to believe that completely, but if that was completely true, then why did you have an issue in telling Baron upfront?

[JN Anderson]

Yet one of the guys giving out the fake degrees was arrested and charged as a pedophile and for flee from prosecution in that case. His case is still open.

Wow. :groan It only gets worse.

[Justin]

Baron and the rest of us were not "poking into alot of people's business." We were all looking at the public claims made by people operating in the public arena.

All of the information that has been posted is publicly and freely available.

The only private information that was ever given out was when you gave out Baron's cell phone number. Instead of boasting that you would do that again - you should examine your spirit. You wouldn't even tell him who you gave the number to - THUS - YOU! participated in the fraud that followed and the apparently criminal misrepresentations that were made in that phone call.

YOU could have quickly defused that that situation, or at least mitigated it. But instead you chose to participate in the fraud - unknowingly, I would say; but you ended you associating yourself with some very bad actors.

Post of the day!

No sir. A pedophile is not in the same league as a person with a degree from a diploma mill. We are not real sure if this is something deeper than we know and a few guys are being taken on these types of deals.

I wasn't talking about pedophiles, I meant that if this same thing happened outside of your circle of peers, you probably wouldn't care.

You participated and conspired to hide the identity of a caller (Boora) who went on to misrepresent himself as a member of the Washington DC Bar Association.

You then went on another forum and crowed about how a "lawyer" was going to bring down AFF. The whole affair involved misrepresentation and deceit.

Boora and the others made the fraudulent claims that fueled this thread. They publicly deceived the brethren with regard to their credentials. Exposing that fraud by linking to news stories and even police and court records is a service to Oneness community at large.

You, by your actions, have sought to obfuscate and even facilitate the deception. I trusted you, Bro. I spoke up for you all along the way. Please don't let me down.

Honestly, Boora's deception speaks volumes about his spirit. That, and the fact that he asked to have this thread deleted to cover up what has been uncovered. I wonder what everyone at AMF has to say about this?

[JN Anderson]

I would like to believe that completely, but if that was completely true, then why did you have an issue in telling Baron upfront?

Because he asked me not too. I told this to John over the phone. I said he would know by morning. He knew who it was by that night though.

[rgcraig]

Because he asked me not too. I told this to John over the phone. I said he would know by morning. He knew who it was by that night though.

And, you didn't find that strange?

You said you wanted the two to talk it out, yet you refrained from telling Baron "because he asked you to" - - if the intent was for them to talk it only makes sense that they each know what's going on.

When he asked that you "not tell him" - you should have asked why. And, I think we are all giving you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't discuss with him the whole DC Bar threat.

[jfrog]

How about if we just allow them to burn their "degrees" and to disassociate themselves from the whole fraudulent mess?

And then they can seek out a course toward a real degree as JN has done and as so many other have done.

If they do that then they will earn forgiveness.

[JN Anderson]

How about if we just allow them to burn their "degrees" and to disassociate themselves from the whole fraudulent mess?

And then they can seek out a course toward a real degree as JN has done and as so many other have done.

I think, at the root, someone or somebody has a gambit. A ring of this stuff. I think some know what they are getting into. But some people may not fully understand what they are being offered. Just saying. I could be a million miles off but I think there is something at the root of this we aren't seeing.

[MrMasterMind]

JN Anderson - you should have listened to your friend and your wife.

Really? He remains involved against the advice of wife and friends?

[rgcraig]

If they do that then they will earn forgiveness.

Exactly!

[JN Anderson]

And, you didn't find that strange?

You said you wanted the two to talk it out, yet you refrained from telling Baron "because he asked you to" - - if the intent was for them to talk it only makes sense that they each know what's going on.

When he asked that you "not tell him" - you should have asked why. And, I think we are all giving you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't discuss with him the whole DC Bar threat.

KB was supposed to call him and settle the matter. It only got more crazy from there. In that case, I am to blame for much I guess. I am sorry. I really didn't see some things coming. No idea.

[pelathais]

Wow. :groan It only gets worse.

Wouldn't you rather know about that now, than to find yourself sitting in John Ankerberg's studio with LS defending the Oneness doctrine and have Ankerberg bring it up?

I'm your friend here.

[rgcraig]

Really? He remains involved against the advice of wife and friends?

That's what he posted yesterday.

[JN Anderson]

You may disagree but I feel that if someone is discussing me at great length on a forum I would like to know who and how to get in touch with them. If you know me then you know that is true but I can't expect you to know me too well over the Internet

[rgcraig]

KB was supposed to call him and settle the matter. It only got more crazy from there. In that case, I am to blame for much I guess. I am sorry. I really didn't see some things coming. No idea.

That's what I've been trying to show you - that you had everything to do with it even IF you didn't know he was going to impersonate the DC Bar.

[JN Anderson]

Wouldn't you rather know about that now, than to find yourself sitting in John Ankerberg's studio with LS defending the Oneness doctrine and have Ankerberg bring it up?

I'm your friend here.

For sure!

[rgcraig]

You may disagree but I feel that if someone is discussing me at great length on a forum I would like to know who and how to get in touch with them. If you know me then you know that is true but I can't expect you to know me too well over the Internet

But, you know me well enough "over the internet" to call me a hypocrite?

[pelathais]

KB was supposed to call him and settle the matter. It only got more crazy from there. In that case, I am to blame for much I guess. I am sorry. I really didn't see some things coming. No idea.

I think that's a fair accounting. It seems that JN was acting out in good faith, trusting Boora to be honest. JN seems to have had the motivation of even being something of a "peace maker" by bringing Boora and Baron together.

What Boora did with it from there was to have perhaps betrayed JN's trust as well.

[ManOfWord]

I think, at the root, someone or somebody has a gambit. A ring of this stuff. I think some know what they are getting into. But some people may not fully understand what they are being offered. Just saying. I could be a million miles off but I think there is something at the root of this we aren't seeing.

I think you're completely right! At the root, IMO, is trying to be something one is not, and "technically" being able to say that one is through a degree. I have a "Master of Practical Ministry" DIPLOMA from Wager Leadership Institute. But I know the difference between a Degree and a Diploma and it is listed on NLC's web site on my (Pastor's) page. :D

[JN Anderson]

But, you know me well enough "over the internet" to call me a hypocrite?

I think it was a case of the pot calling the kettle black, yes.

[rgcraig]

I think that's a fair accounting. It seems that JN was acting out in good faith, trusting Boora to be honest. JN seems to have had the motivation of even being something of a "peace maker" by bringing Boora and Baron together.

What Boora did with it from there was to have perhaps betrayed JN's trust as well.

I want to believe that.

[rgcraig]

I think it was a case of the pot calling the kettle black, yes.

And what exactly have I done to be called the "pot"?

[Cindy]

Wolves in sheep's clothing.

[DAII]

If JA is concerned about Truth and if there is a voice recording me thinks James in good faith should say if he recognizes the voice.

[MrMasterMind]

You may disagree but I feel that if someone is discussing me at great length on a forum I would like to know who and how to get in touch with them. If you know me then you know that is true but I can't expect you to know me too well over the Internet

Giving a personal cellphone number? And then not telling that party to whom your were giving it?

Fact- you thought your "friend" the "lawyer" was going to set the record straight and get the ones responsible for besmirching the reputation of LS and others. Your- gee who would have thought, is almost as disingenuous as - gee I didn't know my honorary degree was bogus trying to pass as a heartfelt apology.

It all blew up in your face, ready to stick to what you said yesterday and go back to writing Apologetics?

[Justin]

I think that's a fair accounting. It seems that JN was acting out in good faith, trusting Boora to be honest. JN seems to have had the motivation of even being something of a "peace maker" by bringing Boora and Baron together.

What Boora did with it from there was to have perhaps betrayed JN's trust as well.

Honestly, Boora's deception speaks volumes about his spirit. That, and the fact that he asked to have this thread deleted to cover up what has been uncovered.

[JN Anderson]

I think you're completely right! At the root, IMO, is trying to be something one is not, and "technically" being able to say that one is through a degree. I have a "Master of Practical Ministry" DIPLOMA from Wager Leadership Institute. But I know the difference between a Degree and a Diploma and it is listed on NLC's web site on my (Pastor's) page. :D

I think this degree mill is organized and is a scheme to collect money for worthless paper. Again, I think it is a gambit, or a ring of degree mills.

[D. Wright]

Giving a personal cellphone number? And then not telling that party to whom your were giving it?

Fact- you thought your "friend" the "lawyer" was going to set the record straight and get the ones responsible for besmirching the reputation of LS and others. Your- gee who would have thought, is almost as disingenuous as - gee I didn't know my honorary degree was bogus trying to pass as a heartfelt apology.

It all blew up in your face, ready to stick to what you said yesterday and go back to writing Apologetics?

Ironic isn't it?

[ManOfWord]

JN, while your change in tone is appreciated, I think too many people respond emotionally when things are brought up and questioned instead of digging to find out the truth. It's kind of like passing on the emails which promise $$$ for clicking on a link or something without checking them out first. I ALWAYS check forwards out before doing anything else but deleting them. My integrity is at stake and that is very important to me and should be to others as well, IMO. As one of the owners here, we try very hard to deal with truth and let it stand on its own merits. Are we perfect? Certainly not! But we do try our best to let the hard discussions play themselves out and not censor out of political correctness. :D

[JN Anderson]

Giving a personal cellphone number? And then not telling that party to whom your were giving it?

Fact- you thought your "friend" the "lawyer" was going to set the record straight and get the ones responsible for besmirching the reputation of LS and others. Your- gee who would have thought, is almost as disingenuous as - gee I didn't know my honorary degree was bogus trying to pass as a heartfelt apology.

It all blew up in your face, ready to stick to what you said yesterday and go back to writing Apologetics?

Think what you want MMM. I don't hide behind avatars and fake names like yourself. What are you hiding? If you want you can call. PM and I'll give you my cell number.

[JN Anderson]

JN, while your change in tone is appreciated, I think too many people respond emotionally when things are brought up and questioned instead of digging to find out the truth. It's kind of like passing on the emails which promise $$$ for clicking on a link or something without checking them out first. I ALWAYS check forwards out before doing anything else but deleting them. My integrity is at stake and that is very important to me and should be to others as well, IMO. As one of the owners here, we try very hard to deal with truth and let it stand on its own merits. Are we perfect? Certainly not! But we do try our best to let the hard discussions play themselves out and not censor out of political correctness. :D

Thanks MOW

[jfrog]

There is still one thing that doesn't make sense to me in regards to the phone number. It seems to me that Baron asked for the contact information of the person who called him after the call was made (possibly with details as to why he wanted it). JN then refused his request. I can't figure out why?

[JN Anderson]

Ironic isn't it?

What's ironic? D. Wright if you have a beef or something to get off your chest PM me and I'll give you my cell number. BTW, I don't just write apologetics. I do them as well. I have a debate this winter and in the spring. Love for you to attend.

[JN Anderson]

There is still one thing that doesn't make sense to me in regards to the phone number. It seems to me that Baron asked for the contact information of the person who called him after the call was made (possibly with details as to why he wanted it). JN then refused his request. I can't figure out why?

John only asked me for a name. Not a phone number or "contact" info. I think he will verify this as well.

[MrMasterMind]

What's ironic? D. Wright if you have a beef or something to get off your chest PM me and I'll give you my cell number. BTW, I don't just write apologetics. I do them as well. I have a debate this winter and in the spring. Love for you to attend.

Before this I might actually have considered it.