Whaaaaaaatt???? What's happening in Canada??

[Thad]

ANyone know why it was removed ?
what did i do now ????????????? always something!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Felicity]

I don't know where it went to but I read it. :)

I've not heard anything at all about the Canadian brethren wanting to go it on their own and become the UPC of Canada, and I would have very mixed feelings about it happening.

[berkeley]

Maybe it's up for review. *shrugs*

[Thad]

I saw it. :) I've not heard anything at all about the Canadian brethren wanting to go it on their own and become the UPC of Canada. And I would have very mixed feelings about it happening.


It is true

the meetings are being held in canada. i first reported St.L

[Ron]

It is true

the meetings are being held in canada. i first reported St.L


Wrongo Thado!

Somebody wants it! The majority in Canada are against it!

End of story.

[StillStanding]

It is true

the meetings are being held in canada. i first reported St.L
They should wait and vote in favor of the TV resolution, then break away! :D

[Felicity]

Wrongo Thado!

Somebody wants it! The majority in Canada are against it!

End of story.Aha! :)

This sounds more like it!

[Thad]

Wrongo Thado!

Somebody wants it! The majority in Canada are against it!

End of story.


wrongo on what ?? you are saying there are no meetings going on ??

you are wrong if you are saying that . I don't know who is for it or who is against up there - that i do not know. in fact, I was wondering that myself

[BrotherEastman]

I'll tell you this, My wife is against the UPCI in Canada breaking away. I hear tell, that the main reason for the idea being proposed, was for tax purposes. Anyone know for sure?

[Thad]

I think some folk are in denial about this -NO NAMES!!!

[vrblackwell]

I'll tell you this, My wife is against the UPCI in Canada breaking away. I hear tell, that the main reason for the idea being proposed, was for tax purposes. Anyone know for sure?

I pray this does not happen. Canada is a very important part of the UPCI. I don't think this would be good for anyone. This would weaken both the UPCI of Canada as well as the US UPCI. We are stronger by remaining together.

[Thad]

I pray this does not happen. Canada is a very important part of the UPCI. I don't think this would be good for anyone. This would weaken both the UPCI of Canada as well as the US UPCI. We are stronger by remaining together.



WELL!! "someone"finally got the nerve up to post on this topic!!! NO NAMES MENTIONED :lol

[StillStanding]

Tennesseans are agin it! :)

[BrotherEastman]

I pray this does not happen. Canada is a very important part of the UPCI. I don't think this would be good for anyone. This would weaken both the UPCI of Canada as well as the US UPCI. We are stronger by remaining together.
I totally agree!!!!

[Felicity]

I totally agree!!!!I'm not sure I totally agree but probably mostly agree.

I'd love to hear Maple Leaf or Wally chime in on this.

[BrotherEastman]

I'm not sure I totally agree but probably mostly agree.

I'd love to hear Maple Leaf or Wally chime in on this.
Do you know wether or not it's because of tax reasons?

[Felicity]

Do you know wether or not it's because of tax reasons?I have no idea but I seriously can't see this happening. There are such strong ties and bond with the American brethren along with other important reasons as well.

[Thad]

I have no idea but I seriously can't see this happening. There are such strong ties and bond with the American brethren along with other important reasons as well.



it's the canadians who are wanting this felicity
not the americans

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

it's the canadians who are wanting this felicity
not the americans

Thad-amongus>

Here is your rules you checked off when you joined.

The owners of Apostolic Friends Forum reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.


You DID NOT verify this with anyone in Canada, and apparently those in Western Canada say this is false. :canada

I as well would like to hear From Maple Leaf, or Wally (if he is still here)

Did you lose your phone again, or you simply don't take my calls?!?

:telephone

[Ron]

it's the canadians who are wanting this felicity
not the americans

Like I said, a few may discuss it, even fewer want it---the majority like a strong connection to HQ'S and our American brethren.

As it is already we have a lot of "autononmy" already.

Someone proposed a "sister organization" the vast majority are against it and frankly, are offended that it is being proposed.

[Truly Blessed]

Why would anyone feel that the Canadians becoming nationaized would be "breaking away" from the UPCI? It is supposed to be the goal of every missionary to bring the nation where they are serving to nationalization as soon as that country has enough ministers and churches, along with qualified leaders to direct the affairs of the national organization.

In the early 90's, while serving as Atlantic District Foreign Missions Director, I suggested that Canada should be its own National Organization and support its own missionaries. (At that time a C$, by the time it actually reached the missionary was worth about 65 cents.) Of course that flew like a lead balloon. :)

I disagree that the UPCI and UPC Canada would be weakened by Canada being on its own. The PAOC has been independent from the AOG in the USA from the outset and it is the largest Pentecostal organization in Canada by far. The ACOP is a Canadian organization with its own headquarters in Calgary, it's own missions department, its own accredited Bible college that had 120 students last year, etc.

Does anyone know of any other country in the world that has as many churches and ministers as Canada that has not become nationalized? Canada has its own culture, is a bilingual nation, is already registered as a charitable organization, has an annual Canadian Conference, etc.

I believe the Canadian UPC would benefit from being nationalized. This is not the same as "breaking away". I would call it "growing up". :)

[Monkeyman]

What happened is that they voted in a General Sup position like in most other countries....go home nothing to see here...oh and btw, thanks for not asking someone who attends the church where the meeting is being held, sheesh. Beginning to feel left out around AFF, grrrrr! (Except Boom)

[Truly Blessed]

What happened is that they voted in a General Sup position like in most other countries....go home nothing to see here...oh and btw, thanks for not asking someone who attends the church where the meeting is being held, sheesh. Beginning to feel left out around AFF, grrrrr! (Except Boom)Monkeyman, thanks for the information! I feel this is a step in the right direction. It's time for UPC of Canada to come into its own and establish its "national" identity versus the individual provinces simply relating to the American organization as "districts" within that organization.

BTW, I'll be seeing you in a couple weeks at the Summer Summit! Who are the speakers this year?

[Maple Leaf]

What happened is that they voted in a General Sup position like in most other countries....go home nothing to see here...oh and btw, thanks for not asking someone who attends the church where the meeting is being held, sheesh. Beginning to feel left out around AFF, grrrrr! (Except Boom)

Wow!

This is a pretty major news flash - "a General Sup position like in most other countries."

The election of a Canadian Superintendent would be a major structural change in the UPCC.

Who was elected General Superintendent of Canada?

What will happen to the position of Executive Presbyter for Canada that Bro. Granville MacKenzie now holds?

Will the UPCC continue to have representation on the Executive Board of the UPCI?

[Sarah]

Why would anyone feel that the Canadians becoming nationaized would be "breaking away" from the UPCI? It is supposed to be the goal of every missionary to bring the nation where they are serving to nationalization as soon as that country has enough ministers and churches, along with qualified leaders to direct the affairs of the national organization.

In the early 90's, while serving as Atlantic District Foreign Missions Director, I suggested that Canada should be its own National Organization and support its own missionaries. (At that time a C$, by the time it actually reached the missionary was worth about 65 cents.) Of course that flew like a lead balloon. :)

I disagree that the UPCI and UPC Canada would be weakened by Canada being on its own. The PAOC has been independent from the AOG in the USA from the outset and it is the largest Pentecostal organization in Canada by far. The ACOP is a Canadian organization with its own headquarters in Calgary, it's own missions department, its own accredited Bible college that had 120 students last year, etc.

Does anyone know of any other country in the world that has as many churches and ministers as Canada that has not become nationalized? Canada has its own culture, is a bilingual nation, is already registered as a charitable organization, has an annual Canadian Conference, etc.

I believe the Canadian UPC would benefit from being nationalized. This is not the same as "breaking away". I would call it "growing up". :)

This post makes sense, if I understand the thread right.

Canada would still be a part of the UPCI, right? Just independent from the states.

Are any other countries like that now, or is Bro Haney superintendent over all countries?

[TRIPLE E]

I haven't posted in a while but all that is being done is being done right now is for the sake of evangelism in Canada .I believe this is a step in the right direction!

[TrueNorth]

What happened is that they voted in a General Sup position like in most other countries....go home nothing to see here...oh and btw, thanks for not asking someone who attends the church where the meeting is being held, sheesh. Beginning to feel left out around AFF, grrrrr! (Except Boom)

Monkey
I was at the Canada Conference as well. This is not what happened. Canada has an executive presbyter (Granville MacKenzie) who was elected at the General Conference. A letter and poll were sent out by three men asking if ministers would be in favor of the executive presbyter becoming an assistant general superintendent or if ministers would be in favor of a separate organization. These three gentlemen, while fine elders, had no official standing to do so and in my opinion do not have much of a constituency to back them.

There is no significant movement (it would probably be safe to say "no movement") to create a "sister" organization that would break off from the UPCI. Canada already has the UPC of Canada which serves a role in complying with government of Canada regulations regarding the flow of money out of Canada. It has not and does not serve as a ministerial organization.

Canada has just over 200 UPCI churches, the majority of which are in two districts - Ontario and Atlantic. In patriotic terms a separate sister organization is appealing, in practical financial and operational terms it loses it's luster and becomes just another layer of bureaucracy.

Hope this helps. There is no story here.

Truenorth

[TrueNorth]

Wow!

This is a pretty major news flash - "a General Sup position like in most other countries."

The election of a Canadian Superintendent would be a major structural change in the UPCC.

Who was elected General Superintendent of Canada?

What will happen to the position of Executive Presbyter for Canada that Bro. Granville MacKenzie now holds?

Will the UPCC continue to have representation on the Executive Board of the UPCI?

Maple Leaf
Stop making fun and asking inconvenient questions.
Truenorth

[retsambeW]

True North,

My sources seem to agree with your version of events. Would you say that while a UPC of Canada sounds appetizing to some, that current situations and logistics make it undesireable?

[Rhoni]

With only 200 churches in Canada which belong to UPCI, to become it's own organization would cut off it's nose to spite it's face. There is very little fellowship anyway.

Blessings, Rhoni

[retsambeW]

With only 200 churches in Canada which belong to UPCI, to become it's own organization would cut off it's nose to spite it's face. There is very little fellowhip anyway.

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni,

You have grasped the situation perfectly.

[Maple Leaf]

Maple Leaf
Stop making fun and asking inconvenient questions.
Truenorth

Hey Nanook!

I happen to know that Bro. Monkey has an inside track. I'll wait for his answer.


May I ask one more question: "When will the American church be nationalized?"

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

.

Hope this helps. There is no story here.

Truenorth

Monk may not have understood the Exec Presbyter was not a Canadian GS. This is forgivable.

Typical of yet another UNCONFIRMED Thad-flash was the deleted thread and the opening statements of this one.

Thank you for the clarification!

:canada

[TrueNorth]

The only election at a Canadian Conference is the ratification of the board of directors (the Canadian Superintendents.)

[Truly Blessed]

Monkey
I was at the Canada Conference as well. This is not what happened. Canada has an executive presbyter (Granville MacKenzie) who was elected at the General Conference. A letter and poll were sent out by three men asking if ministers would be in favor of the executive presbyter becoming an assistant general superintendent or if ministers would be in favor of a separate organization. These three gentlemen, while fine elders, had no official standing to do so and in my opinion do not have much of a constituency to back them.

There is no significant movement (it would probably be safe to say "no movement") to create a "sister" organization that would break off from the UPCI. Canada already has the UPC of Canada which serves a role in complying with government of Canada regulations regarding the flow of money out of Canada. It has not and does not serve as a ministerial organization.

Canada has just over 200 UPCI churches, the majority of which are in two districts - Ontario and Atlantic. In patriotic terms a separate sister organization is appealing, in practical financial and operational terms it loses it's luster and becomes just another layer of bureaucracy.

Hope this helps. There is no story here.

TruenorthThe UPC of Canada is roughly the same size as the ACOP, perhaps a little bit smaller. We seem to function very well on a national level. I personally believe an independent Canadian organization would serve the best interest of future growth in the Canadian church.

I would be interested in specific commentary on the points I have made in the earlier post. Why would Canadians not want to be a national body like every other UPC cosnstituency? Have they become so dependent upon Hazelwood that they simply don't believe in their own potential?

[Rhoni]

The UPC of Canada is roughly the same size as the ACOP, perhaps a little bit smaller. We seem to function very well on a national level. I personally believe an independent Canadian organization would serve the best interest of future growth in the Canadian church.

I would be interested in specific commentary on the points I have made in the earlier post. quote]
Why would Canadians not want to be a national body like every other UPC cosnstituency? Have they become so dependent upon Hazelwood that they simply don't believe in their own potential?

:girlpopcorn Good question...would be interested to see the comments you get on this one.

I would say TB; there are many more benefits to being in a larger organization than just fellowship. There is access to much more resources isn't there?

Blessings, Rhoni

[TRIPLE E]

The UPC of Canada is roughly the same size as the ACOP, perhaps a little bit smaller. We seem to function very well on a national level. I personally believe an independent Canadian organization would serve the best interest of future growth in the Canadian church.

I would be interested in specific commentary on the points I have made in the earlier post. Why would Canadians not want to be a national body like every other UPC cosnstituency? Have they become so dependent upon Hazelwood that they simply don't believe in their own potential?

I for one am for having our own national body in Canada.

2006 Canadian populatio-33,098,932
2006 UPC churches 223
1 church for every 148,426 of the population

2006 American population-295,934,134
UPC churches -4277
1 church for every 69,192 of the population

The production rate in Canada is 2.15 times slower than the US

[Maple Leaf]

The UPC of Canada is roughly the same size as the ACOP, perhaps a little bit smaller. We seem to function very well on a national level. I personally believe an independent Canadian organization would serve the best interest of future growth in the Canadian church.

I would be interested in specific commentary on the points I have made in the earlier post. Why would Canadians not want to be a national body like every other UPC cosnstituency? Have they become so dependent upon Hazelwood that they simply don't believe in their own potential?


This is purely an academic discussion for me, but one that interests me enough that I'll play devil's advocate for the sake of conversation.

The first point that should be clarified is that Canada is not a mission field to be nationalized, but a partner in the UPCI. The UPCI is not an American organization, but a joint Canadian/American organization.

It could as easily be argued that the American churches need to be nationalized as to argue for the nationalization of the Canadian churches. The UPCI is an international organization, not a national body.

Removing the Canadian component from the UPCI would limit opportunity for Canadian missionaries. There are 15+ Canadian missionaries in the UPCI, with an approximate total annual budget of 1.8+ million Canadian dollars. The total Missions giving for the Canadian churches, for the last year reported on UPCI.org was 1.2 million Canadian dollars. Canada does not produce enough missions revenue to fund Canadian missionaries.

An independent UPCC would be faced with the choice of reducing the number of missionaries, or slashing the budgets of the existing missionaries.

[Maple Leaf]

I for one am for having our own national body in Canada.

2006 Canadian populatio-33,098,932
2006 UPC churches 223
1 church for every 148,426 of the population

2006 American population-295,934,134
UPC churches -4277
1 church for every 69,192 of the population

The production rate in Canada is 2.15 times slower than the US

The argument could be made that Canadians have been ineffective in reaching their nation with the resources made available to them by the UPCI, and that a separation from those resources would be disastrous to Canadian evangelism.

I would be interested to know if the Home Missions giving by Canadian churches would be enough to fund even a single metro missionary.

[Maple Leaf]

Canada is so large geographically and has such a low population density that a separate Canadian organization would be ineffective in providing fellowship.

The United Pentecostal church in Canada is an Eastern organization. A full 75% of its churches, and an even larger percentage of its constituents live east of the Manitoba/Ontario border. For most Canadian United Pentecostals, Hazelwood is closer than the ACOP headquarters in Calgary, Alberta, and, for those in New Brunswick, Hazelwood is more than 2000 KMs less driving than Calgary.

[TrueNorth]

The UPC of Canada is roughly the same size as the ACOP, perhaps a little bit smaller. We seem to function very well on a national level. I personally believe an independent Canadian organization would serve the best interest of future growth in the Canadian church.

I would be interested in specific commentary on the points I have made in the earlier post. Why would Canadians not want to be a national body like every other UPC cosnstituency? Have they become so dependent upon Hazelwood that they simply don't believe in their own potential?

I will try to respond to some of your points.
Whether in Canada or the US evangelism and planting churches is a district operation, not national. As you know Home Missionaries are approved by their districts before receiving funding. Having a national organization will not jump start the process.
In my opinion the UPCI has one of the better Missions programs in existence. Currently with the joint venture working as it is Canadian Missionaries receive tremendous benefit. Why change it now?
Canadians may want on one level to be a separate organization however on a practical level there are benefits to remaining as part of the UPCI. A separate organization creates another level of bureaucracy with all of it's attendant costs.
I don't know very many Canadian ministers or leaders who are dependent on Hazelwood for much of anything. I do think Canadians are realists - recognizing that the united thrusts of evangelism and missions that we share with our US brothers and sisters are more effective than what we can do on our own.
It might just be me, but I don't see the ACOP as being a shining example of a Canadian success story. It has neither a great organized missions program or coordinated Home Missions program and remains primarily a western organization with no clear definition of what it is.

[TrueNorth]

I for one am for having our own national body in Canada.

2006 Canadian populatio-33,098,932
2006 UPC churches 223
1 church for every 148,426 of the population

2006 American population-295,934,134
UPC churches -4277
1 church for every 69,192 of the population

The production rate in Canada is 2.15 times slower than the US

And having our own national organization would solve this how? By moving the Bible Belt from the southern US into Canada?
Revival and harvest are local church grassroots responsibilities.

[Truly Blessed]

This is purely an academic discussion for me, but one that interests me enough that I'll play devil's advocate for the sake of conversation.

The first point that should be clarified is that Canada is not a mission field to be nationalized, but a partner in the UPCI. The UPCI is not an American organization, but a joint Canadian/American organization.

It could as easily be argued that the American churches need to be nationalized as to argue for the nationalization of the Canadian churches. The UPCI is an international organization, not a national body.IMO whether it's a partnership or a mission field is a mute point. The fact remains that apart from Atlantic Canada the rest of the nation remains a mission field for the UPC with very few churches west of Ontario.

Removing the Canadian component from the UPCI would limit opportunity for Canadian missionaries. There are 15+ Canadian missionaries in the UPCI, with an approximate total annual budget of 1.8+ million Canadian dollars. The total Missions giving for the Canadian churches, for the last year reported on UPCI.org was 1.2 million Canadian dollars. Canada does not produce enough missions revenue to fund Canadian missionaries.

An independent UPCC would be faced with the choice of reducing the number of missionaries, or slashing the budgets of the existing missionaries.Thank you for the statistics. This info further reinforces my conviction that Canada can nationalize and still support its missionaries. When I was a UPC missionary it would be determined what your budget was to live on the field and then it was doubled and that is what you had to raise. Then of course you have the percent that supports Hazelwood. I am convinced that a Canadian organization would be much less costly to administrate. As well, I believe missionaries can live and work with less budgets than what the present UPC standard allows for.

[Truly Blessed]

Canada is so large geographically and has such a low population density that a separate Canadian organization would be ineffective in providing fellowship.

The United Pentecostal church in Canada is an Eastern organization. A full 75% of its churches, and an even larger percentage of its constituents live east of the Manitoba/Ontario border. For most Canadian United Pentecostals, Hazelwood is closer than the ACOP headquarters in Calgary, Alberta, and, for those in New Brunswick, Hazelwood is more than 2000 KMs less driving than Calgary.Why would becoming a national organization change the fellowship dynamic? Why wouldn't the same "partnership" exist? You would still be part of the UPCI. I think back to when the UPC of NB had withdrawn from an official affiliation with UPCI. My recollection is that UPC ministers were preaching in NB churches and at District functions, and ministers were attending UPCI events in the US. BTW, how many trips do UPC ministers make to Hazelwood each year anyway? Is it now mandatory to make annual treks to Mecca [Hazelwood]? :)

[H2H]

I'll tell you this, My wife is against the UPCI in Canada breaking away. I hear tell, that the main reason for the idea being proposed, was for tax purposes. Anyone know for sure?

Is she like a Canadian Bishop or something?

[Truly Blessed]

I will try to respond to some of your points.
Whether in Canada or the US evangelism and planting churches is a district operation, not national. As you know Home Missionaries are approved by their districts before receiving funding. Having a national organization will not jump start the process.
In my opinion the UPCI has one of the better Missions programs in existence. Currently with the joint venture working as it is Canadian Missionaries receive tremendous benefit. Why change it now?
Canadians may want on one level to be a separate organization however on a practical level there are benefits to remaining as part of the UPCI. A separate organization creates another level of bureaucracy with all of it's attendant costs.
I don't know very many Canadian ministers or leaders who are dependent on Hazelwood for much of anything. I do think Canadians are realists - recognizing that the united thrusts of evangelism and missions that we share with our US brothers and sisters are more effective than what we can do on our own.
It might just be me, but I don't see the ACOP as being a shining example of a Canadian success story. It has neither a great organized missions program or coordinated Home Missions program and remains primarily a western organization with no clear definition of what it is.I can see the present benefit of belonging to a larger organization. It's like Atlantic Canada being the "have not" provinces that they are relying on the rest of Canada to provide them with the benefits that Canadians in other provinces enjoy.

While I agree that the ACOP has an identity problem, I have to disagree with what seems to be a deficient knowledge of their missions program. I was quite impressed actually with what is a strong missions emphasis with very active involvement in missions on the local level. You can't judge their progam by what flows through Calgary. For example, our church sent perhaps $50,000 - $60,000 to Calgary last year, yet we gave around $100,000 to missions. I think you would be surprised at the depth of their missionary involvement.

[Maple Leaf]

IMO whether it's a partnership or a mission field is a mute point. The fact remains that apart from Atlantic Canada the rest of the nation remains a mission field for the UPC with very few churches west of Ontario.

In your initial post on this topic, you used the "mission field" example as a basis for the argument that the Canadian churches should be nationalized. In the context of that argument the difference between a controlled mission field and a full partnership is far from being a moot point.

Why would anyone feel that the Canadians becoming nationaized would be "breaking away" from the UPCI? It is supposed to be the goal of every missionary to bring the nation where they are serving to nationalization as soon as that country has enough ministers and churches, along with qualified leaders to direct the affairs of the national organization.

. . .

Does anyone know of any other country in the world that has as many churches and ministers as Canada that has not become nationalized? Canada has its own culture, is a bilingual nation, is already registered as a charitable organization, has an annual Canadian Conference, etc.

I believe the Canadian UPC would benefit from being nationalized. This is not the same as "breaking away". I would call it "growing up". :)

Canada is a full partner in the UPCI, and enjoys a disproportionate amount of control over the direction of the denomination. Canada has approximately 15% of the votes on the General Board, but only represents approximately 4% of the constituency of the UPCI. Canadian ministers, as full members of the UPCI, are eligible for the executive offices of the UPCI, including the office of General Superintendent, a privilege not extended to ministers on mission fields.

There was a moot point made, but It wasn't I who made it.

[Maple Leaf]

The UPC of Canada is roughly the same size as the ACOP, perhaps a little bit smaller. We seem to function very well on a national level. I personally believe an independent Canadian organization would serve the best interest of future growth in the Canadian church.

I would be interested in specific commentary on the points I have made in the earlier post. Why would Canadians not want to be a national body like every other UPC cosnstituency? Have they become so dependent upon Hazelwood that they simply don't believe in their own potential?

Is the ACOP a stand alone denomination because that is a better structure, or because its doctrinal distinctives bar it from participation in larger fellowships?

The ACOP is excluded from partnership with the UPCI because of its inclusion of trinitarianism and its promotion of Calvinism, and is refused partnership with the PAOC because of its official "Jesus Name" baptismal formula and its stand for the doctrine of unconditional eternal security.

[Ron]

Monkey
I was at the Canada Conference as well. This is not what happened. Canada has an executive presbyter (Granville MacKenzie) who was elected at the General Conference. A letter and poll were sent out by three men asking if ministers would be in favor of the executive presbyter becoming an assistant general superintendent or if ministers would be in favor of a separate organization. These three gentlemen, while fine elders, had no official standing to do so and in my opinion do not have much of a constituency to back them.

There is no significant movement (it would probably be safe to say "no movement") to create a "sister" organization that would break off from the UPCI. Canada already has the UPC of Canada which serves a role in complying with government of Canada regulations regarding the flow of money out of Canada. It has not and does not serve as a ministerial organization.

Canada has just over 200 UPCI churches, the majority of which are in two districts - Ontario and Atlantic. In patriotic terms a separate sister organization is appealing, in practical financial and operational terms it loses it's luster and becomes just another layer of bureaucracy.

Hope this helps. There is no story here.

Truenorth


This hits the nail on the head, and while appetite by and large for a seperate organization is not there right now (perhaps if we go big enough) the way that this is being handeled and put forth is making a lot of ministers upset.

There is always more to the story than put forth.

[Steve Epley]

Carry on Brethren this is interesting.

[Truly Blessed]

Is the ACOP a stand alone denomination because that is a better structure, or because its doctrinal distinctives bar it from participation in larger fellowships?

The ACOP is excluded from partnership with the UPCI because of its inclusion of trinitarianism and its promotion of Calvinism, and is refused partnership with the PAOC because of its official "Jesus Name" baptismal formula and its stand for the doctrine of unconditional eternal security.ML, with all due respect, you are misinformed about the ACOP. First of all, where does the ACOP have "inclusion of trinitarianism"? I assume that you refer to its Godhead statement, "We believe in the eternal existence of one true God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Which part of that statement do you not believe?

Secondly, to say the ACOP is excluded from partnership with the UPCI means nothing. What organization isn't excluded from partnership with the UPCI?

Thirdly, the ACOP has never requested partnership with the PAOC as far as I know, so how can you be refused something you have never requested? Actually the ACOP has a very close working relationship with the PAOC. Our leadership speaks at their conferences and their leaders speak at ours.

BTW, since when does being an organization constitute "a stand alone denomination"? For whatever reason you seem to have a bad attitude toward the ACOP. I'm sorry to see that. One thing I will say about the ACOP. I have never heard any preacher in any setting speak in a derogatory manner about the UPC during the three years I have been in the West. If mentioned at all, it is with respect, while at the same time simply stating they don't agree with this or that point of emphasis.

[Truly Blessed]

In your initial post on this topic, you used the "mission field" example as a basis for the argument that the Canadian churches should be nationalized. In the context of that argument the difference between a controlled mission field and a full partnership is far from being a moot point. I used the "mission field" analogy only to make the point that every other nation of the world has their own national organization and identity. A "controlled" mission field. Now there's a telling terminology. I'm sure that some of those national works feel as if they're being controlled at times. :)



Canada is a full partner in the UPCI, and enjoys a disproportionate amount of control over the direction of the denomination. Canada has approximately 15% of the votes on the General Board, but only represents approximately 4% of the constituency of the UPCI. Canadian ministers, as full members of the UPCI, are eligible for the executive offices of the UPCI, including the office of General Superintendent, a privilege not extended to ministers on mission fields.

There was a moot point made, but It wasn't I who made it.I guess having disproportionate clout in an American organization would certainly be preferable to having 100% control of a Canadian organization! But that's a moot point I think! :)

[Steve Epley]

Y'all consolidate with us I think we have 1 church in Canada we are taking the nation by storm keeping the officials of the ACOP and UPC awake at nights.:sly

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Y'all consolidate with us I think we have 1 church in Canada we are taking the nation by storm keeping the officials of the ACOP and UPC awake at nights.:sly

There is a GIB in Alberta also.

[Truly Blessed]

There is a GIB in Alberta also.What's a GIB?

[Maple Leaf]

ML, with all due respect, you are misinformed about the ACOP. First of all, where does the ACOP have "inclusion of trinitarianism"? I assume that you refer to its Godhead statement, "We believe in the eternal existence of one true God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Which part of that statement do you not believe?

Secondly, to say the ACOP is excluded from partnership with the UPCI means nothing. What organization isn't excluded from partnership with the UPCI?

Thirdly, the ACOP has never requested partnership with the PAOC as far as I know, so how can you be refused something you have never requested? Actually the ACOP has a very close working relationship with the PAOC. Our leadership speaks at their conferences and their leaders speak at ours.

BTW, since when does being an organization constitute "a stand alone denomination"? For whatever reason you seem to have a bad attitude toward the ACOP. I'm sorry to see that. One thing I will say about the ACOP. I have never heard any preacher in any setting speak in a derogatory manner about the UPC during the three years I have been in the West. If mentioned at all, it is with respect, while at the same time simply stating they don't agree with this or that point of emphasis.

Pastor Truly Blessed

I completely reject your charge of a bad attitude toward the ACOP. I have never, on this forum or any other, made any negative statement about the ACOP. For that matter, I have never made any negative public statement about the ACOP, nor have I even been in a meeting where a negative statement was made. I actually know very little, living in the east, about the ACOP as a denomination. The ACOP brethren that I have met, I have found to be fine Christians.

You have apparently interpreted the term "stand alone denomination" as a criticism when it means nothing more than that the ACOP is a separate entity, not a part of either the UPCI or the PAOC.

I find it interesting that you take offense at the suggestion of the inclusion of trinitarianism in the ACOP when you yourself go on to say, "Actually the ACOP has a very close working relationship with the PAOC. Our leadership speaks at their conferences and their leaders speak at ours."

I never even said that the inclusion of trinitarianism was a bad thing, only that it was a factor in the exclusion of the ACOP from partnership with the UPCI.

"We believe in the eternal existence of one true God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Which part of that statement do you not believe?

I find it curious that you would think that any Christian, of any persuasion, would not believe this godhead statement. I certainly don't find anything in it to disagree with.

Here is a quote from Professor Fudge's book, "Christianity Without the Cross" (Page 60. Footnote 102). Do you disgree with this statement made by the Moderator of the ACOP?


ACOP no longer identifies itself as a Oneness group. 'I was speaking briefly last week . . . with the Moderator of ACOP . . . (he) clearly and firmly denied any association with the Oneness tradition.' Correspondence from David Reed, 7 May 2001,1.

[Truly Blessed]

Pastor Truly Blessed

I completely reject your charge of a bad attitude toward the ACOP. I have never, on this forum or any other, made any negative statement about the ACOP. For that matter, I have never made any negative public statement about the ACOP, nor have I even been in a meeting where a negative statement was made. I actually know very little, living in the east, about the ACOP as a denomination. The ACOP brethren that I have met, I have found to be fine Christians.

You have apparently interpreted the term "stand alone denomination" as a criticism when it means nothing more than that the ACOP is a separate entity, not a part of either the UPCI or the PAOC.

I find it interesting that you take offense at the suggestion of the inclusion of trinitarianism in the ACOP when you yourself go on to say, "Actually the ACOP has a very close working relationship with the PAOC. Our leadership speaks at their conferences and their leaders speak at ours."

I never even said that the inclusion of trinitarianism was a bad thing, only that it was a factor in the exclusion of the ACOP from partnership with the UPCI.



I find it curious that you would think that any Christian, of any persuasion, would not believe this godhead statement. I certainly don't find anything in it to disagree with.

Here is a quote from Professor Fudge's book, "Christianity Without the Cross" (Page 60. Footnote 102). Do you disgree with this statement made by the Moderator of the ACOP?I'll leave the assessment of your attitude to others on AFF who can be more objective perhaps than myself who, rather than being an independent like yourself, belong to the organization you speak of and apt to be on the defensive.

As to the statement of the former Moderator, if this is true, it must have been decided by the Moderator, because no General Session since I became a member in January 1998 has voted to adopt this position. I certainly have not received any communication that states what is said in this quote. I will be investigating this.

I am surprised you don't see the difference between your statement of "inclusion of trinitarianism" (which I interpret to mean as being part of our statement of faith), and the fact that we would have fellowship with other born again believers from another organization.

[Barb]

What's a GIB?

Elder, I will try and interpret for you. I believe in the tongue of the brethren, GIB is Good Independent Brother...

[mfblume]

After reading this, some are far too organizationally minded. I felt that way even while in the UPC.

[Felicity]

Y'all consolidate with us I think we have 1 church in Canada we are taking the nation by storm keeping the officials of the ACOP and UPC awake at nights.:slyLOL!

We have at least one GIB church here in this area and I've met the pastor on more than one occasion! :thumbsup

[Felicity]

After reading his, some are far too organizationally minded. I felt that way even while in the UPC.I wouldn't want to be independent - no way. I like being part of an organized group.

[mfblume]

I wouldn't want to be independent - no way. I like being part of an organized group. The one we're with presently I'm not terribly excited about but oh well ..... :)

I am not speaking about being independent of any fellowship, but one can be too organizationally minded. The Body of Christ is not an organization, but an organism. That was my point. I know you are not like this, but I've spoken to some people who equate their organization as the Body of Christ.

[Felicity]

I am not speaking about being independent of any fellowship, but one can be too organizationally minded. The Body of Christ is not an organization, but an organism. That was my point. I know you are not like this, but I've spoken to some people who equate their organization as the Body of Christ.Right.

I think some people don't know any different. They've been told "this is the truth" and they know the group they're connected with is preaching that truth and they don't know that there's anything else "out there". I'm talking saints here not pastors. Hopefully pastors wouldn't think that way.

[mfblume]

Right.

I think some people don't know any different. They've been told "this is the truth" and they know the group they're connected with is preaching that truth and they don't know that there's anything else "out there". I'm talking saints here not pastors. Hopefully pastors wouldn't think that way.

Amen. I know some pastors, though, who have said they know the body of Christ is not their organization, but in other ways give you the opposite impression. Also, the impression the saints have can mistakenly be caused by some of the ways pastors present a fellowship. We should not mention our fellowship more than Jesus Christ! ;) I've actually heard that done, though.

[BrotherEastman]

Is she like a Canadian Bishop or something?
My wife is Canadian, she has strong ties with the 1st UPC of Toronto, as she was thier secretary. Who knows, maybe the Lord will send me to Canada one day.

[South of I 90]

So what is going to happen when Quebec secedes from Canada??!! :sly

[Thumper]

Y'all consolidate with us I think we have 1 church in Canada we are taking the nation by storm keeping the officials of the ACOP and UPC awake at nights.:sly

I'm trying elder, I'm trying!!!!

:canada

Just call me The Canadian chairman, presiding prelate, General superintendent and chief cook and bottle washere

I think I want my own orginization.

Just think of all the power I will have.

[Steve Epley]

I'm trying elder, I'm trying!!!!

:canada

Just call me The Canadian chairman, presiding prelate, General superintendent and chief cook and bottle washere

I think I want my own orginization.

Just think of all the power I will have.

Now we have them running scared. Had another church once but they all hauled off and moved to Texas wearing cowboy hats and boots. Flying confederate flags.

[Truly Blessed]

Now we have them running scared. Had another church once but they all hauled off and moved to Texas wearing cowboy hats and boots. Flying confederate flags.They must have run off to join forces with the McKillop-ites who packed up and all left PEI for Texas. :)

[Steve Epley]

They must have run off to join forces with the McKillop-ites who packed up and all left PEI for Texas. :)

That was who I was talking about. EF is in NB at the present visiting family.

[TrueNorth]

That was who I was talking about. EF is in NB at the present visiting family.

Hate to spill the beans but I was talking to EF at the Canada Conference. He looked mighty comfortable among all those heathen UPCers. Didn't even snarl or spit. Hey Thad, perhaps he is looking our way!

[TrueNorth]

Does anybody besides me think that the ACOP lost their claim to be a oneness organization when they merged with the Evangelical Fellowship.
The ACOP position as I understand it is that of the "triunity" of God.
It is wonderful that baptism in Jesus name remains one of their distinctives!

[TrueNorth]

So what is going to happen when Quebec secedes from Canada??!! :sly

Ain't gonna happen!

[Thad]

I heard that the ACOP will baptize people either way.

I heard this from someone who was in it and said that they had become to weak doctrinally for them.

said that that even some churches were trinitarian now ???

I'm nost there so I don't know for sure just going on what was told to me from someone from Alberta

[Steve Epley]

Hate to spill the beans but I was talking to EF at the Canada Conference. He looked mighty comfortable among all those heathen UPCers. Didn't even snarl or spit. Hey Thad, perhaps he is looking our way!

I will tell. His wife has been very sick.

[Thumper]

Hate to spill the beans but I was talking to EF at the Canada Conference. He looked mighty comfortable among all those heathen UPCers. Didn't even snarl or spit. Hey Thad, perhaps he is looking our way!

Evangelism opportunity:killinme

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Now if TripleE posts, we will have all 8 of the Canadian AFF members here.

:canada

[Maple Leaf]

Monk may not have understood the Exec Presbyter was not a Canadian GS. This is forgivable.

Typical of yet another UNCONFIRMED Thad-flash was the deleted thread and the opening statements of this one.

Thank you for the clarification!

:canada

I did not read the deleted thread, but I do think that there is a possibility that Thad is being unfairly criticized in this instance.

I have a feeling that Thad may have been closer to the truth than what is being admitted to here. I would have a better sense of his accuracy if the deleted thread were restored.

Thad spotted the smoke, and Nanook of the North hasn't done a great job convincing me that there isn't any fire.

[Steve Epley]

Evangelism opportunity:killinme

He came up to sign up new members is what I heard. Most of the Atlantic district is coming our way. Then we will knock PR's hat in the creek.:sly

[Maple Leaf]

This hits the nail on the head, and while appetite by and large for a seperate organization is not there right now (perhaps if we go big enough) the way that this is being handeled and put forth is making a lot of ministers upset.

There is always more to the story than put forth.


Who has it right?

TrueNorth posted that there is no story here.

Ron posted that there is more to the story than put forth.

What is being handled and put forth in such a way that it is making a lot of ministers upset?

Thad hit on the scent of controversy. Let's see if he can sniff out the whole story.

[Birdie]

Just want to have my say on this topic. I'm not into all the political debting etc but have heard from excellent sources, a lot of the old timers, that they would love Canada to be independant of the U.S.A. because they were hood-winked by them in the beginning when they joined up with them. When "the message" came to Canada it was not one of such strictness and they weren't looking for all the standards that came with signing up with the U.S.A. The old timers say they just wanted to see people accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and then as they matured in the Lord, get baptized and filled with the Spirit. They believed that the repentant man/woman had to understand salvation and then grow in the Lord. (Be baptized and filled with the Spirit). Too many rules and regulations for the old timers and they say all this "foolishness" of standards has done more harm than good. Now don't get me wrong. They believe in holiness unto God but all this man-made stuff is for the birds. No pun intended.

[Maple Leaf]

Just want to have my say on this topic. I'm not into all the political debting etc but have heard from excellent sources, a lot of the old timers, that they would love Canada to be independant of the U.S.A. because they were hood-winked by them in the beginning when they joined up with them. When "the message" came to Canada it was not one of such strictness and they weren't looking for all the standards that came with signing up with the U.S.A. The old timers say they just wanted to see people accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and then as they matured in the Lord, get baptized and filled with the Spirit. They believed that the repentant man/woman had to understand salvation and then grow in the Lord. (Be baptized and filled with the Spirit). Too many rules and regulations for the old timers and they say all this "foolishness" of standards has done more harm than good. Now don't get me wrong. They believe in holiness unto God but all this man-made stuff is for the birds. No pun intended.

Welcome aboard Birdie.

It's always great to have another Canadian show up.

Having said that, I pretty much disagree with your whole post.

[Thad]

I heard that the ACOP will baptize people either way.

I heard this from someone who was in it and said that they had become to weak doctrinally for them.

said that that even some churches were trinitarian now ???

I'm nost there so I don't know for sure just going on what was told to me from someone from Alberta

BUMP * * *

[Birdie]

Welcome aboard Birdie.

It's always great to have another Canadian show up.

Having said that, I pretty much disagree with your whole post.

First. I didn't say I was Canadian and sorry if I misled you to believe that. Second, ask the old time retired preachers their feelings on this topic. They have a lot of years of experience and truly believe that things in Canada have strayed from the way they first started out preaching and believing. Now, some may have come on board with the doctrinal teaching of the U.S.A. but that was not their intent when they first started ministering in the New Brunswick area. Their mission was to see souls saved and lives changed. Ask them about the old days and how things were before the UPC. I think you will be greatly surprised.

[Truly Blessed]

First. I didn't say I was Canadian and sorry if I misled you to believe that. Second, ask the old time retired preachers their feelings on this topic. They have a lot of years of experience and truly believe that things in Canada have strayed from the way they first started out preaching and believing. Now, some may have come on board with the doctrinal teaching of the U.S.A. but that was not their intent when they first started ministering in the New Brunswick area. Their mission was to see souls saved and lives changed. Ask them about the old days and how things were before the UPC. I think you will be greatly surprised.Some folks are simply too young to know anything but a district that was already UPC.

[TrueNorth]

Just want to have my say on this topic. I'm not into all the political debting etc but have heard from excellent sources, a lot of the old timers, that they would love Canada to be independant of the U.S.A. because they were hood-winked by them in the beginning when they joined up with them. When "the message" came to Canada it was not one of such strictness and they weren't looking for all the standards that came with signing up with the U.S.A. The old timers say they just wanted to see people accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and then as they matured in the Lord, get baptized and filled with the Spirit. They believed that the repentant man/woman had to understand salvation and then grow in the Lord. (Be baptized and filled with the Spirit). Too many rules and regulations for the old timers and they say all this "foolishness" of standards has done more harm than good. Now don't get me wrong. They believe in holiness unto God but all this man-made stuff is for the birds. No pun intended.

This is like saying that all pioneer preachers had blond hair. It just ain't so.
I do know that much of the "strictiness" came with the teaching of some Bro.'s from the Excited States however some of the homegrown elders were very strict themselves.

[Ron]

Who has it right?

TrueNorth posted that there is no story here.

Ron posted that there is more to the story than put forth.

What is being handled and put forth in such a way that it is making a lot of ministers upset?

Thad hit on the scent of controversy. Let's see if he can sniff out the whole story.

It has been suggested that Canada create a Sister Organization-the question has to be asked "Why" an d what are the "real motives?"

Is it truly in the "Kingdom Of God's" interest?

[Maple Leaf]

. . . Too many rules and regulations for the old timers and they say all this "foolishness" of standards has done more harm than good. Now don't get me wrong. They believe in holiness unto God but all this man-made stuff is for the birds. No pun intended.

Here is a footnote from Professor Fudge's book, "Christianity Without the Cross" (Footnote 39; Page 283). These rules were posted almost three decades before the UPC even existed.


For example, rules were posted on the wall of the UPC church in St. Stephen, New Brunswick from the 1920s to the 1960s.

'These are published in behalf of Holiness, Godliness and Purity and for the advancement of God's Kingdom.

1). That no member shall use tobacco in cigar, cigarette, chewing, pipe, snuff, or any other form.

2). That no sister member shall wear short hair, bobbed, shingled, or any other style that is not long enough to be "put up." If for any reason a sister is compelled to cut her hair, for such as sickness, skin disease etc., it will be necessary for such a one to give a satisfactory explanation to the assembly. (Please note this rule does not include children, but is applied to "women." Neither does it apply to new converts who have not had sufficient time to let their hair grow).

3). That no member shall have "permanent waves."

4). That no member shall appear in public without stockings. The only place where no stockings is proper is in your chamber.

5). That no sister member shall wear "sleeveless dresses" in church, on the street, or any public place.

6). That the sister members' dress will be sufficiently long to cover their limbs in a "modest" manner at all times and that they will dress at all times in such a manner as becometh women professing Godliness. 1 Timothy 2.10

7). That no member shall go to the theatre, moving picture, or any other similar worldly thing or endorse (by giving money or aiding in any other way) their children who are under age in going.

In case of violation of any above rules, the offender will be asked to appear in due time before a meeting of the church board, and the case be dealt with in a logical scriptural manner, and to the best of the wisdom and ability of the board in the fear of Almighty God, and the Day of Judgment. The acceptance or rejection of the member will be announced to the Church. May God save us from the judgement of the "Days of Noah" and the "Days of Lot" which we are in.'

[Steve Epley]

This is like saying that all pioneer preachers had blond hair. It just ain't so.
I do know that much of the "strictiness" came with the teaching of some Bro.'s from the Excited States however some of the homegrown elders were very strict themselves.

Ever hear of McKellops & McElroy & Buster????????????? That is so.

[TopDog]

I heard that the ACOP will baptize people either way.

I heard this from someone who was in it and said that they had become to weak doctrinally for them.

said that that even some churches were trinitarian now ???

I'm nost there so I don't know for sure just going on what was told to me from someone from Alberta

This was all discussed at some length back on FCF/nFCF......

Having been part of the UPC for many years, but now living in Alberta and having been to many ACOP churches both here and back in New Brunswick, I would have to agree in part with your statement regarding the ACOP's Godhead stance.

I personally know ACOP ministers who baptize in Jesus name, and others in Jesus name AND FSHG together. The ACOP seems to offer such a degree of latitude in this area that even though many likely baptize in Jesus name they would be mildly amused to hear that folks consider them to be "oneness". I don't think they've institutionalized the oneness versus trinitarian "thing" to the extent that other groups have. They don't see baptism in 'Jesus name as making them "oneness" as other groups would - or in making them NOT trinitarian as some groups may perceive. They have OTHER priorities..... :sshhh

My two cents......(BTW - I happen to agree with them even though I don't currently attend an ACOP church)

[Felicity]

Top Dog, True North, Birdie, Maple Leaf, Thumper et al........

It's great to have you all chiming in here. :thumbsup

[Felicity]

Ever hear of McKellops & McElroy & Buster????????????? That is so.You could add a few more names to that list. RG Priest for one. And there were a few others. I think though that overall there was always what I felt was a moderate position held by most of the Atlantic District men.

I love the point that's been made here a few times ..... and that is the fact that the UPCI in Canada ihas been most largely represented in the East and most significantly in New Brunswick.

[Steve Epley]

I think I enjoyed the Canada thread on FCF more than any of them.

[Felicity]

I think I enjoyed the Canada thread on FCF more than any of them.It was great. The second largest thread outside of Thad's Tab.

I miss the Canadian guys' input. *hint hint guys* :)

I'm getting to know some of the UPC pastors and wives here in B.C. We plan to attend at least a couple of the campmeeting services in July. Bro. Mooney is preaching.

One of the pastor's wives here and I have had lunch together and are getting together again soon. :)

I've met and made friends with some of the ACOP ladies but there just isn't the same connection. They're very nice but ....... well, it's just kind of hard to explain. :)

[TopDog]

I think I enjoyed the Canada thread on FCF more than any of them.

Speaking of New Brunswick - are there any posters on here who attend First UPC in Saint John?

[mfblume]

Ever hear of McKellops & McElroy & Buster????????????? That is so.


You mean McKillops, McElroy and Bustard. The Bustards are my uncles.

[TrueNorth]

It was great. The second largest thread outside of Thad's Tab.

I miss the Canadian guys' input. *hint hint guys* :)

I'm getting to know some of the UPC pastors and wives here in B.C. We plan to attend at least a couple of the campmeeting services in July. Bro. Mooney is preaching.

One of the pastor's wives here and I have had lunch together and are getting together again soon. :)

I've met and made friends with some of the ACOP ladies but there just isn't the same connection. They're very nice but ....... well, it's just kind of hard to explain. :)

Hallelujah....they're looking our way!!!!! :hanky

[Steve Epley]

You mean McKillops, McElroy and Bustard. The Bustards are my uncles.

Yes and some of them preached outward holiness standards.

[mfblume]

Yes and some of them preached outward holiness standards.

Yessir. But never said they were heaven or hell. :)

[Steve Epley]

Yessir. But never said they were heaven or hell. :)

NOT even ONE of them? Fudge I believe says the opposite however it has been awhile wince I read it and EF said one of them was a strong holiness preacher at one time?

[Maple Leaf]

NOT even ONE of them? Fudge I believe says the opposite however it has been awhile wince I read it and EF said one of them was a strong holiness preacher at one time?

Professor Fudge spent a number of his formative years in a church pastored by one of the preaching Bustards. The pastor was, and I expect still is, a strong holiness preacher.

With all due respect to Bro. Blume, I would have to hear AJB himself say that hair and pants were not heaven or hell issues before I would be convinced.

[Felicity]

Bro. Bustard had many women in at least one of the churches he pastored who had cut hair and who wore pants. I doubt very much he ever made a statement or held a firm conviction that women who cut their hair will go to hell.

If he'd ever made such a statement he would have been in serious trouble. :)

[TopDog]

Bro. Bustard had many women in at least one of the churches he pastored who had cut hair and who wore pants. I doubt very much he ever made a statement or held a firm conviction that women who cut their hair will go to hell.


...including close family members/relatives....

[Felicity]

It's nice to hear someone (Bro. Epley) giving credence to Tom Fudge's writings when so many UPCers do their best make it out to be a work of fiction.

Now that is what is really very laughable. :)

[Felicity]

...including close family members/relatives....Indeed!

[TrueNorth]

Yes and some of them preached outward holiness standards.

You should change that to read "all of them"
Those men had no problem in laying it down straight and hard.

[Felicity]

You should change that to read "all of them"
Those men had no problem in laying it down straight and hard. Some laid it down straighter and harder than others though.

[mfblume]

With all due respect to Bro. Blume, I would have to hear AJB himself say that hair and pants were not heaven or hell issues before I would be convinced.



I can PROMISE you that the only way these things would be proposed by him as heaven or hell is if a rebellious spirit rose up in a person, and refused just ti refuse, rather than sincere disagreement.

[TrueNorth]

Some laid it down straighter and harder than others though.

Always - but I am having difficulty thinking of Atlantic District elders who stayed in the ark who didn't preach it.

[Felicity]

Always - but I am having difficulty thinking of Atlantic District elders who stayed in the ark who didn't preach it.Can't think of any myself. :)

[Steve Epley]

It's nice to hear someone (Bro. Epley) giving credence to Tom Fudge's writings when so many UPCers do their best make it out to be a work of fiction.

Now that is what is really very laughable. :)

I think Fudge is NOT to be taken as absolute because he has prejudice however it was well written and many things can be verified by others.

[Maple Leaf]

I can PROMISE you that the only way these things would be proposed by him as heaven or hell is if a rebellious spirit rose up in a person, and refused just ti refuse, rather than sincere disagreement.

Here is a quote, from an unnamed brother, that expresses the same concept:

MOST ISSUES OF HOLINESS ARE NOT SALVATION ISSUES; THEY ARE CHRISTIAN MATURITY (OR, SANCTIFICATION) ISSUES. ONLY AS WE DO NOT OBEY GOD IN THESE AREAS DOES OUR WILLFUL DISOBEDIENCE BECOME A SALVATION ISSUE.

When I read or hear something like this, it sounds like "These are not salvation issues unless you fail to comply, and then they are."

Or, "You won't go to Hell for cutting your hair, but if you cut your hair you will go to hell for cutting your hair, but it won't be for cutting your hair, but because you disobeyed and cut your hair."

[Elizabeth]

Here is a quote, from an unnamed brother, that expresses the same concept:



When I read or hear something like this, it sounds like "These are not salvation issues unless you fail to comply, and then they are."

Or, "You won't go to Hell for cutting your hair, but if you cut your hair you will go to hell for cutting your hair, but it won't be for cutting your hair, but because you disobeyed and cut your hair."

I have heard the same remarks before, does sound like they are contradicting themselves.

[mfblume]

When someone is outright rebellious by nature and spirit, and they disagree with ANYTHING, that is the problem that sends folks to hell. But comparing that with sincere disagreement over an issue is not at all the same.

[Maple Leaf]

When someone is outright rebellious by nature and spirit, and they disagree with ANYTHING, that is the problem that sends folks to hell. But comparing that with sincere disagreement over an issue is not at all the same.

I can appreciate what you are saying, but fail to see its application to the issue of "standards."

For example: It is preached that a lady wearing pants is an abomination to God. Then the disclaimer is added that it is not wearing pants, but rebellion that will cause the pant wearing lady to go to hell. The conclusion is that ladies may wear pants, be an abomination to God, and yet go to Heaven if they sincerely disagree.

If a lady wearing pants is an abomination to God, she is an abomination in spite of her opinion, attitude, or circumstances.

In my opinion, it is a contortion of logic to preach that wearing pants is an abomination to God, and then to convolute that position by suggesting that it's not a Heaven or hell issue. If it's an abomination to God, it's a Heaven or hell issue.

[mfblume]

I can appreciate what you are saying, but fail to see its application to the issue of "standards."

For example: It is preached that a lady wearing pants is an abomination to God. Then the disclaimer is added that it is not wearing pants, but rebellion that will cause the pant wearing lady to go to hell. The conclusion is that ladies may wear pants, be an abomination to God, and yet go to Heaven if they sincerely disagree.

If a lady wearing pants is an abomination to God, she is an abomination in spite of her opinion, attitude, or circumstances.

The actual thought, though, is whether or not pants ARE an abomination. The bible never said that. It said men's apparel on a woman is an abomination, and vice versa.

So we must ask ourselves whether or not "pants" are men's apparel at any given time in history. We know cultures change and so does the "standard" of what and what not is men's or women's apparel. And then there aree the opinions of whether or not something is the current thought for men's apparel.

At one time pants were neither men's nor women's apparel. NOBODY WORE THEM. God never gave Adam "breeches", nor Eve. He clothed them with COATS. As time went on, cultural variation began. And then what was considered masculine or feminine changed. One day, who knows when (?), pants came into being. Culture CHANGED for that to occur. So, who is to say culture WILL NOT CHANGE again, or has not already changed?

Someone responds saying, "But modesty is still modesty." Amen! So God's people are adominished to retain masculinity and feminity in respective modes of apparel, while maintaining MODESTY all the while. When cultures change, men's apparel will not be what it was at one point, but modesty must still be maintained with whatever we consider men's apparel. Same with women's apparel.

My point is that PANTS were not labeled as men's apparel in Deut 22:5. That is because God knows CULTURES CHANGE along with what specifically is considered men's apparel, while modesty remains.

In my opinion, it is a contortion of logic to preach that wearing pants is an abomination to God, and then to convolute that position by suggesting that it's not a Heaven or hell issue. If it's an abomination to God, it's a Heaven or hell issue.

I never said wearing pants was an abomination when I gave my example. :) That was not an issue.

CULTURES CHANGE. And it will always be that it is an abomination for a woman to wear "men's apparel", and vice versa. But WHAT EXACTLY THAT APPAREL is will CHANGE. We cannot insert PANTS or ROBES or SARI'S in for MEN'S APPAREL. So the BIBLICAL truth is to maintain feminine and masculine distinction in dress, AND REMAIN MODEST in it all. It is abomination for a woman to wear men's apparel. Let's let the bible say what it actually said.

[Maple Leaf]

You're preaching to the choir here Pastor.

There are some ladies' pants that I view as abomination, but not necessarily on religious grounds.

I received your book, and have already looked at all the pictures; now all I need to do is find somebody to read it to me.

I was privileged to spend my teen years under the ministry of Lloyd W., and we never had any doubts about whether people who violated standards were lost - we knew they were, without a doubt, and beyond any question.

[mfblume]

You're preaching to the choir here Pastor.

There are some ladies' pants that I view as abomination, but not necessarily on religious grounds.

I agree. lol. And SOME dresses.

I received your book, and have already looked at all the pictures; now all I need to do is find somebody to read it to me.

lol. Cool pics, eh?


I was privileged to spend my teen years under the ministry of Lloyd W., and we never had any doubts about whether people who violated standards were lost - we knew they were, without a doubt, and beyond any question.

wow.

[mfblume]

I can appreciate what you are saying, but fail to see its application to the issue of "standards."

To clarify, my application was concerning something that is not nailed down in scripture like the pants versus dresses issue, since those items of clothing did not exist then. That makes the issue opinion. If the the pastor abides by claiming PANTS ARE the issue, in his opinion, and the saint disagrees, then it is not heaven or hell. I think the knowledgable pastor would agree. So then it becomes something that COULD BE heaven or hell if the person involved is simply rebellious natured, but not so if it is sincere disagreement -- all because it is not nailed down in scripture. That was my point.

[Maple Leaf]

To clarify, my application was concerning something that is not nailed down in scripture like the pants versus dresses issue, since those items of clothing did not exist then. That makes the issue opinion. If the the pastor abides by claiming PANTS ARE the issue, in his opinion, and the saint disagrees, then it is not heaven or hell. I think the knowledgable pastor would agree. So then it becomes something that COULD BE heaven or hell if the person involved is simply rebellious natured, but not so if it is sincere disagreement -- all because it is not nailed down in scripture. That was my point.

I am still looking for AJB's tape on hair from his 1982 series on "Separation." I found and listened to the tape on "Television," but I can't find any others from the series. The television tape would blister the hide of a lot of preachers in the new UPC.

Contrary to the protestations of a few, I don't know of one person, family or otherwise, that was "used" in the church, with cut hair, during that era. He inherited a lot of cut hair in a later church, but in those days you wouldn't sit under his teaching and believe you were going to Heaven with bobbed hair. I certainly didn't.

[mfblume]

I am still looking for AJB's tape on hair from his 1982 series on "Separation." I found and listened to the tape on "Television," but I can't find any others from the series. The television tape would blister the hide of a lot of preachers in the new UPC.

Contrary to the protestations of a few, I don't know of one person, family or otherwise, that was "used" in the church, with cut hair, during that era. He inherited a lot of cut hair in a later church, but in those days you wouldn't sit under his teaching and believe you were going to Heaven with bobbed hair. I certainly didn't.

I am going to ask him by email and see what he says. I will PM you the answer. :)

[Subdued]

The actual thought, though, is whether or not pants ARE an abomination. The bible never said that. It said men's apparel on a woman is an abomination, and vice versa.

So we must ask ourselves whether or not "pants" are men's apparel at any given time in history. We know cultures change and so does the "standard" of what and what not is men's or women's apparel. And then there aree the opinions of whether or not something is the current thought for men's apparel.

At one time pants were neither men's nor women's apparel. NOBODY WORE THEM. God never gave Adam "breeches", nor Eve. He clothed them with COATS. As time went on, cultural variation began. And then what was considered masculine or feminine changed. One day, who knows when (?), pants came into being. Culture CHANGED for that to occur. So, who is to say culture WILL NOT CHANGE again, or has not already changed?

Someone responds saying, "But modesty is still modesty." Amen! So God's people are adominished to retain masculinity and feminity in respective modes of apparel, while maintaining MODESTY all the while. When cultures change, men's apparel will not be what it was at one point, but modesty must still be maintained with whatever we consider men's apparel. Same with women's apparel.

My point is that PANTS were not labeled as men's apparel in Deut 22:5. That is because God knows CULTURES CHANGE along with what specifically is considered men's apparel, while modesty remains.



I never said wearing pants was an abomination when I gave my example. :) That was not an issue.

CULTURES CHANGE. And it will always be that it is an abomination for a woman to wear "men's apparel", and vice versa. But WHAT EXACTLY THAT APPAREL is will CHANGE. We cannot insert PANTS or ROBES or SARI'S in for MEN'S APPAREL. So the BIBLICAL truth is to maintain feminine and masculine distinction in dress, AND REMAIN MODEST in it all. It is abomination for a woman to wear men's apparel. Let's let the bible say what it actually said.


:thumbsup :nod :highfive :clap :yahoo

[Maple Leaf]

I am going to ask him by email and see what he says. I will PM you the answer. :)

While you're at it, why don't you tell him to sign up here. He's probably going crazy trying to be retired, and I could use some help setting everybody straight here.

Can you imagine anybody trying to say that the pioneers in New Brunswick were slack on standards?

I remember one dear elder brother who got anointed at a fellowship in the eighties and preached against the "Readers Digest."

[mfblume]

While you're at it, why don't you tell him to sign up here. He's probably going crazy trying to be retired, and I could use some help setting everybody straight here.

Can you imagine anybody trying to say that the pioneers in New Brunswick were slack on standards?

I remember one dear elder brother who got anointed at a fellowship in the eighties and preached against the "Readers Digest."

HAHA! He may get a kick out of this.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Is this the reincarnation of the Canadian Thread?

If so, it will be a refreshment indeed.

:canada

[Felicity]

While you're at it, why don't you tell him to sign up here. He's probably going crazy trying to be retired, and I could use some help setting everybody straight here.

Can you imagine anybody trying to say that the pioneers in New Brunswick were slack on standards?

I remember one dear elder brother who got anointed at a fellowship in the eighties and preached against the "Readers Digest." :killinme

[Nina]

So we must ask ourselves whether or not "pants" are men's apparel at any given time in history. We know cultures change and so does the "standard" of what and what not is men's or women's apparel. And then there aree the opinions of whether or not something is the current thought for men's apparel.

At one time pants were neither men's nor women's apparel. NOBODY WORE THEM. God never gave Adam "breeches", nor Eve. He clothed them with COATS. As time went on, cultural variation began. And then what was considered masculine or feminine changed. One day, who knows when (?), pants came into being. Culture CHANGED for that to occur. So, who is to say culture WILL NOT CHANGE again, or has not already changed?



Bro I read somewhere that during Aristotle's lifetime he was one of the first to wear pants and was looked down upon for it.

I wish I could find the link,

Nina

[Thumper]

Well this has been an interesting thread indeed. Thad called me prior to begining this thread to see if I could confirm, deny or illuminate what was happening. Unfortunately I could not. BC is not exactly the epicentre of oneness pentecostalism in Canada and I am not really conected to what is going on in and around the churches in this area much anymore. What I did tell Thad, and perhaps some of you easterners could add to or correct what I'm saying, was that there was an administrative change that took place somewhere in the middle 90's that created the UPC of Canada and made it somehow distinct from the UPCI. Now I stand to be corrected on this but I was told it was primarily just a housekeeping matter to legalize all the funds that were flowing to the UPCI from Canadian churches. That it would in no way changed the relationship that local churches or ministers had with the various ministries and governance of the UPCI.

I guess my question would be what do the people who are driving this idea see being accomplished by it? My perspective, being primarily western, would see it as being a way of keeping funds at home and being utilized for local and national projects that are otherwise ignored by those in Mecca. It was always my feeling that an inordinant amount of money went out but precious little ever came back. FMD not withstanding because those funds are not intended to come back to fund local ministries but things like CFC, SFC, SOC etc were always presented as national ministries to the local church but they never seemed to find their way to our local church or any church that I knew of.

I wonder if there is anyone of our fine Canadian UPC friends who post here who might know how much is raised by these ministries vs. what returns back to the district and local church.

I think it would be a very interesting look. Again my perspective is skewed because I have been in never neverland out here on the coast and the things that take place out east were very rarely given any prominance out here. Also, having been away from the UPC for over 7 years now means that things may have changed out here and maybe they lavishing money on the local assemblies promoting evangelism.

:)

[Steve Epley]

I am still looking for AJB's tape on hair from his 1982 series on "Separation." I found and listened to the tape on "Television," but I can't find any others from the series. The television tape would blister the hide of a lot of preachers in the new UPC.

Contrary to the protestations of a few, I don't know of one person, family or otherwise, that was "used" in the church, with cut hair, during that era. He inherited a lot of cut hair in a later church, but in those days you wouldn't sit under his teaching and believe you were going to Heaven with bobbed hair. I certainly didn't.

That is what EF told me and also Elder McElroy.

[Truly Blessed]

This was all discussed at some length back on FCF/nFCF......

Having been part of the UPC for many years, but now living in Alberta and having been to many ACOP churches both here and back in New Brunswick, I would have to agree in part with your statement regarding the ACOP's Godhead stance.

I personally know ACOP ministers who baptize in Jesus name, and others in Jesus name AND FSHG together. The ACOP seems to offer such a degree of latitude in this area that even though many likely baptize in Jesus name they would be mildly amused to hear that folks consider them to be "oneness". I don't think they've institutionalized the oneness versus trinitarian "thing" to the extent that other groups have. They don't see baptism in 'Jesus name as making them "oneness" as other groups would - or in making them NOT trinitarian as some groups may perceive. They have OTHER priorities..... :sshhh

My two cents......(BTW - I happen to agree with them even though I don't currently attend an ACOP church)


I personally do not baptize in the name of Jesus Christ because I associate doing so with the Godhead. I do so because it is the only name in which I have any authority to baptize anyone. Even if I was Trinitarian, I would still baptize in the name of Jesus Christ.

[Truly Blessed]

NOT even ONE of them? Fudge I believe says the opposite however it has been awhile wince I read it and EF said one of them was a strong holiness preacher at one time? I still am! :)

[Truly Blessed]

Always - but I am having difficulty thinking of Atlantic District elders who stayed in the ark who didn't preach it.How about ESM?

[Truly Blessed]

Here is a quote, from an unnamed brother, that expresses the same concept:



When I read or hear something like this, it sounds like "These are not salvation issues unless you fail to comply, and then they are."

Or, "You won't go to Hell for cutting your hair, but if you cut your hair you will go to hell for cutting your hair, but it won't be for cutting your hair, but because you disobeyed and cut your hair."
:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol

[Truly Blessed]

I can appreciate what you are saying, but fail to see its application to the issue of "standards."

For example: It is preached that a lady wearing pants is an abomination to God. Then the disclaimer is added that it is not wearing pants, but rebellion that will cause the pant wearing lady to go to hell. The conclusion is that ladies may wear pants, be an abomination to God, and yet go to Heaven if they sincerely disagree.

If a lady wearing pants is an abomination to God, she is an abomination in spite of her opinion, attitude, or circumstances.

In my opinion, it is a contortion of logic to preach that wearing pants is an abomination to God, and then to convolute that position by suggesting that it's not a Heaven or hell issue. If it's an abomination to God, it's a Heaven or hell issue.Good point ML, and one I totally agree with.

[TrueNorth]

How about ESM?

I was thinking of the generation before ESM. ESM would be the exception that proves the rule. ESM is just barely retirement age now.

[Truly Blessed]

I can appreciate what you are saying, but fail to see its application to the issue of "standards."

For example: It is preached that a lady wearing pants is an abomination to God. Then the disclaimer is added that it is not wearing pants, but rebellion that will cause the pant wearing lady to go to hell. The conclusion is that ladies may wear pants, be an abomination to God, and yet go to Heaven if they sincerely disagree.

If a lady wearing pants is an abomination to God, she is an abomination in spite of her opinion, attitude, or circumstances.

In my opinion, it is a contortion of logic to preach that wearing pants is an abomination to God, and then to convolute that position by suggesting that it's not a Heaven or hell issue. If it's an abomination to God, it's a Heaven or hell issue.Good point ML, and one I totally agree with.

[TrueNorth]

Well this has been an interesting thread indeed. Thad called me prior to begining this thread to see if I could confirm, deny or illuminate what was happening. Unfortunately I could not. BC is not exactly the epicentre of oneness pentecostalism in Canada and I am not really conected to what is going on in and around the churches in this area much anymore. What I did tell Thad, and perhaps some of you easterners could add to or correct what I'm saying, was that there was an administrative change that took place somewhere in the middle 90's that created the UPC of Canada and made it somehow distinct from the UPCI. Now I stand to be corrected on this but I was told it was primarily just a housekeeping matter to legalize all the funds that were flowing to the UPCI from Canadian churches. That it would in no way changed the relationship that local churches or ministers had with the various ministries and governance of the UPCI.

I guess my question would be what do the people who are driving this idea see being accomplished by it? My perspective, being primarily western, would see it as being a way of keeping funds at home and being utilized for local and national projects that are otherwise ignored by those in Mecca. It was always my feeling that an inordinant amount of money went out but precious little ever came back. FMD not withstanding because those funds are not intended to come back to fund local ministries but things like CFC, SFC, SOC etc were always presented as national ministries to the local church but they never seemed to find their way to our local church or any church that I knew of.

I wonder if there is anyone of our fine Canadian UPC friends who post here who might know how much is raised by these ministries vs. what returns back to the district and local church.

I think it would be a very interesting look. Again my perspective is skewed because I have been in never neverland out here on the coast and the things that take place out east were very rarely given any prominance out here. Also, having been away from the UPC for over 7 years now means that things may have changed out here and maybe they lavishing money on the local assemblies promoting evangelism.

:)

The UPC of Canada celebrates its 20th anniversary this year. It was set up due to a problem that arose with sending funds to the US that came to light with an audit that took place in Nova Scotia. In order to send funds into the US it was necessary to set up a joint venture agreement between the newly formed UPCC and the UPCI. This satisfied Revenue Canada's concerns about charities sending money out of the country.
It was never intended by its framers to be a separate ministerial or church organization, the intention was a financial framework to facilitate missions etc.
The movement to transform UPCC into a sister organization seems to me to have its epicentre in New West, enough said?
Now for the offerings question. With all of the major offerings 40 or 50%depending on which offering it is stays in the local district to fund the work of the district departments. The rest is sent to the UPCC - which forwards the funds to St. Louis - except for Christmas for Christ which is kept in Canada and along with extra funds from the USA is used to finance Home Missionaries in Canada.
Usually money is not given to local assemblies other than to Home Missions type situations.
Most district type events are subsidized by the Districts portion of the major offerings.

So, now you know.

[Truly Blessed]

Well this has been an interesting thread indeed. Thad called me prior to begining this thread to see if I could confirm, deny or illuminate what was happening. Unfortunately I could not. BC is not exactly the epicentre of oneness pentecostalism in Canada and I am not really conected to what is going on in and around the churches in this area much anymore. What I did tell Thad, and perhaps some of you easterners could add to or correct what I'm saying, was that there was an administrative change that took place somewhere in the middle 90's that created the UPC of Canada and made it somehow distinct from the UPCI. Now I stand to be corrected on this but I was told it was primarily just a housekeeping matter to legalize all the funds that were flowing to the UPCI from Canadian churches. That it would in no way changed the relationship that local churches or ministers had with the various ministries and governance of the UPCI.

I guess my question would be what do the people who are driving this idea see being accomplished by it? My perspective, being primarily western, would see it as being a way of keeping funds at home and being utilized for local and national projects that are otherwise ignored by those in Mecca. It was always my feeling that an inordinant amount of money went out but precious little ever came back. FMD not withstanding because those funds are not intended to come back to fund local ministries but things like CFC, SFC, SOC etc were always presented as national ministries to the local church but they never seemed to find their way to our local church or any church that I knew of.

I wonder if there is anyone of our fine Canadian UPC friends who post here who might know how much is raised by these ministries vs. what returns back to the district and local church.

I think it would be a very interesting look. Again my perspective is skewed because I have been in never neverland out here on the coast and the things that take place out east were very rarely given any prominance out here. Also, having been away from the UPC for over 7 years now means that things may have changed out here and maybe they lavishing money on the local assemblies promoting evangelism.

:)

When I was in the UPCI our church was constantly raising funds for the various departments. Thousands of dollars were sent to WEC from our church each year. It was difficult to find an opening on the calendar to raise funds for a local cause because you just finished one fund raising campaign for WEC and there was another needing to be promoted.

[TrueNorth]

When I was in the UPCI our church was constantly raising funds for the various departments. Thousands of dollars were sent to WEC from our church each year. It was difficult to find an opening on the calendar to raise funds for a local cause because you just finished one fund raising campaign for WEC and there was another needing to be promoted.

You think it was bad then??? Seems like every year there is another new offering. I don't think there is a time when an offerin drive isn't in progress.

[Hoovie]

I personally do not baptize in the name of Jesus Christ because I associate doing so with the Godhead. I do so because it is the only name in which I have any authority to baptize anyone. Even if I was Trinitarian, I would still baptize in the name of Jesus Christ.

Possible - just last week an AOG pastor reported he will be baptising "in Jesus name".

[Maple Leaf]

I have had opportunity to spend time with saints from the early days of the Full Gospel work in the city of Saint John. It was not unheard of for the "Sisters" to tell a lady, who showed up with pants on, to go home and get dressed properly to attend church. I have heard Bro. AWP, a son of that assembly, preach against Pentecostals going bowling. The last conversation I had with another senior son of that assembly, who is a former superintendent of the PAOC, he was decrying the lack of standards among that group.

I talked with a lady who was the youth leader in the Fredericton church, in the thirties, who was criticized for taking the youth skating on the river.

In the UPC assembly where I spent my teenage years, which was pastored by a graduate of the Emmauel Bible School in Newcastle Bridge, everything was a Heaven or hell issue.

In conversation with another graduate of that school, a respected Bible Teacher, the following was used as an example of extreme eternal security. He had heard a western preacher say that he believed that, if the rapture took place while he was in a movie theatre, there would be holes in the ceiling where the believers went through. The gist of the New Brunswick preacher's comments was that only someone who was eternal security could believe that you could go in the rapture from a movie theatre.

My children have a heritage of Pentecost in New Brunswick that goes back to the mid twenties. They have ancestors who wore hats and close toed shoes under the Ralston's ministry; were preached out of the roller skating rinks by Fredericton preachers; were the focus of Bro. Paul M's confrontational style of holiness preaching; assisted Bro. Clemmie Hyde in taking the Gospel tent to new communities along the Miramichi; lived in the home of CB Dudley; got a good dose of "black and white" religion from Bro. S. Steeves; and, at one point or the other, lived every standard imaginable.

I have talked to many elders who were among the first wave of Pentecostals in New Brunswick, and have had first hand witness that the Pentecostals didn't bring standards to New Brunswick. There were already Baptists that didn't cut their hair or wear pants when the holy rollers arrived. The UPC has held on to the traditions longer than the other groups, but they didn't start them.

Hey Birdie! It's time to come out and sing your song; who were the elders who got yoked into standards by the UPC? I've heard many of the New Brunswick pioneers preach, and they sure convinced me that they believed holiness standards.

[Thumper]

The UPC of Canada celebrates its 20th anniversary this year. It was set up due to a problem that arose with sending funds to the US that came to light with an audit that took place in Nova Scotia. In order to send funds into the US it was necessary to set up a joint venture agreement between the newly formed UPCC and the UPCI. This satisfied Revenue Canada's concerns about charities sending money out of the country.
It was never intended by its framers to be a separate ministerial or church organization, the intention was a financial framework to facilitate missions etc.
The movement to transform UPCC into a sister organization seems to me to have its epicentre in New West, enough said?
Now for the offerings question. With all of the major offerings 40 or 50%depending on which offering it is stays in the local district to fund the work of the district departments. The rest is sent to the UPCC - which forwards the funds to St. Louis - except for Christmas for Christ which is kept in Canada and along with extra funds from the USA is used to finance Home Missionaries in Canada.
Usually money is not given to local assemblies other than to Home Missions type situations.
Most district type events are subsidized by the Districts portion of the major offerings.

So, now you know.
Thanks for the update TN. If New Westminster is the Epicentre then I will definately be able to get some up to date information to post. That is not really surprising to hear as PVR has always had a really heavy hand when it came to this kind of thing. He used to push a "DS is the pastor of the pastors" doctrine. I can't really say it was accepted by others in the district but it certainly didn't stop him from trying.

[Thumper]

I have had opportunity to spend time with saints from the early days of the Full Gospel work in the city of Saint John. It was not unheard of for the "Sisters" to tell a lady, who showed up with pants on, to go home and get dressed properly to attend church. I have heard Bro. AWP, a son of that assembly, preach against Pentecostals going bowling. The last conversation I had with another senior son of that assembly, who is a former superintendent of the PAOC, he was decrying the lack of standards among that group.

I talked with a lady who was the youth leader in the Fredericton church, in the thirties, who was criticized for taking the youth skating on the river.

In the UPC assembly where I spent my teenage years, which was pastored by a graduate of the Emmauel Bible School in Newcastle Bridge, everything was a Heaven or hell issue.

In conversation with another graduate of that school, a respected Bible Teacher, the following was used as an example of extreme eternal security. He had heard a western preacher say that he believed that, if the rapture took place while he was in a movie theatre, there would be holes in the ceiling where the believers went through. The gist of the New Brunswick preacher's comments was that only someone who was eternal security could believe that you could go in the rapture from a movie theatre.

My children have a heritage of Pentecost in New Brunswick that goes back to the mid twenties. They have ancestors who wore hats and close toed shoes under the Ralston's ministry; were preached out of the roller skating rinks by Fredericton preachers; were the focus of Bro. Paul M's confrontational style of holiness preaching; assisted Bro. Clemmie Hyde in taking the Gospel tent to new communities along the Miramichi; lived in the home of CB Dudley; got a good dose of "black and white" religion from Bro. S. Steeves; and, at one point or the other, lived every standard imaginable.

I have talked to many elders who were among the first wave of Pentecostals in New Brunswick, and have had first hand witness that the Pentecostals didn't bring standards to New Brunswick. There were already Baptists that didn't cut their hair or wear pants when the holy rollers arrived. The UPC has held on to the traditions longer than the other groups, but they didn't start them.

Hey Birdie! It's time to come out and sing your song; who were the elders who got yoked into standards by the UPC? I've heard many of the New Brunswick pioneers preach, and they sure convinced me that they believed holiness standards.

Yeah but what do you know:killinme 80 years of history is nothing to some people:IAM

[Steve Epley]

I have had opportunity to spend time with saints from the early days of the Full Gospel work in the city of Saint John. It was not unheard of for the "Sisters" to tell a lady, who showed up with pants on, to go home and get dressed properly to attend church. I have heard Bro. AWP, a son of that assembly, preach against Pentecostals going bowling. The last conversation I had with another senior son of that assembly, who is a former superintendent of the PAOC, he was decrying the lack of standards among that group.

I talked with a lady who was the youth leader in the Fredericton church, in the thirties, who was criticized for taking the youth skating on the river.

In the UPC assembly where I spent my teenage years, which was pastored by a graduate of the Emmauel Bible School in Newcastle Bridge, everything was a Heaven or hell issue.

In conversation with another graduate of that school, a respected Bible Teacher, the following was used as an example of extreme eternal security. He had heard a western preacher say that he believed that, if the rapture took place while he was in a movie theatre, there would be holes in the ceiling where the believers went through. The gist of the New Brunswick preacher's comments was that only someone who was eternal security could believe that you could go in the rapture from a movie theatre.

My children have a heritage of Pentecost in New Brunswick that goes back to the mid twenties. They have ancestors who wore hats and close toed shoes under the Ralston's ministry; were preached out of the roller skating rinks by Fredericton preachers; were the focus of Bro. Paul M's confrontational style of holiness preaching; assisted Bro. Clemmie Hyde in taking the Gospel tent to new communities along the Miramichi; lived in the home of CB Dudley; got a good dose of "black and white" religion from Bro. S. Steeves; and, at one point or the other, lived every standard imaginable.

I have talked to many elders who were among the first wave of Pentecostals in New Brunswick, and have had first hand witness that the Pentecostals didn't bring standards to New Brunswick. There were already Baptists that didn't cut their hair or wear pants when the holy rollers arrived. The UPC has held on to the traditions longer than the other groups, but they didn't start them.

Hey Birdie! It's time to come out and sing your song; who were the elders who got yoked into standards by the UPC? I've heard many of the New Brunswick pioneers preach, and they sure convinced me that they believed holiness standards.

I heard a quite a bit about Ralston and Steeves. Thanks.

[Felicity]

I heard a quite a bit about Ralston and Steeves. Thanks.I never knew either of those men.

[Felicity]

Thanks for the update TN. If New Westminster is the Epicentre then I will definately be able to get some up to date information to post. That is not really surprising to hear as PVR has always had a really heavy hand when it came to this kind of thing. He used to push a "DS is the pastor of the pastors" doctrine. I can't really say it was accepted by others in the district but it certainly didn't stop him from trying.I've heard personal testimonies about this. Seems like if you start attending that church, if you leave without the pastor's blessing you're excommunicated. Good heavens!!

[TopDog]

I've heard personal testimonies about this. Seems like if you start attending that church, if you leave without the pastor's blessing you're excommunicated. Good heavens!!

I have both heard and observed the same thing......

I have close relatives in that church. My family was connected with it to some extent since Bro. West was pastor waaaaaaay back in the day...... :haloplug

[Destiny2]

I grew up going to Emmanuel camp meetings in Minto each summer,Rev.S.Steeves was the leader.We female teenagers always had a hat to wear when we went to Bro.Ralstons church,we would never think about going to P.R .without a hat..........

[TRIPLE E]

I grew up going to Emmanuel camp meetings in Minto each summer,Rev.S.Steeves was the leader.We female teenagers always had a hat to wear when we went to Bro.Ralstons church,we would never think about going to P.R .without a hat..........

My wife always wears a hat when visiting PR,out of respect not out of conviction.

[Truly Blessed]

I have had opportunity to spend time with saints from the early days of the Full Gospel work in the city of Saint John. It was not unheard of for the "Sisters" to tell a lady, who showed up with pants on, to go home and get dressed properly to attend church. I have heard Bro. AWP, a son of that assembly, preach against Pentecostals going bowling. The last conversation I had with another senior son of that assembly, who is a former superintendent of the PAOC, he was decrying the lack of standards among that group.

I talked with a lady who was the youth leader in the Fredericton church, in the thirties, who was criticized for taking the youth skating on the river.

In the UPC assembly where I spent my teenage years, which was pastored by a graduate of the Emmauel Bible School in Newcastle Bridge, everything was a Heaven or hell issue.

In conversation with another graduate of that school, a respected Bible Teacher, the following was used as an example of extreme eternal security. He had heard a western preacher say that he believed that, if the rapture took place while he was in a movie theatre, there would be holes in the ceiling where the believers went through. The gist of the New Brunswick preacher's comments was that only someone who was eternal security could believe that you could go in the rapture from a movie theatre.

My children have a heritage of Pentecost in New Brunswick that goes back to the mid twenties. They have ancestors who wore hats and close toed shoes under the Ralston's ministry; were preached out of the roller skating rinks by Fredericton preachers; were the focus of Bro. Paul M's confrontational style of holiness preaching; assisted Bro. Clemmie Hyde in taking the Gospel tent to new communities along the Miramichi; lived in the home of CB Dudley; got a good dose of "black and white" religion from Bro. S. Steeves; and, at one point or the other, lived every standard imaginable.

I have talked to many elders who were among the first wave of Pentecostals in New Brunswick, and have had first hand witness that the Pentecostals didn't bring standards to New Brunswick. There were already Baptists that didn't cut their hair or wear pants when the holy rollers arrived. The UPC has held on to the traditions longer than the other groups, but they didn't start them.

Hey Birdie! It's time to come out and sing your song; who were the elders who got yoked into standards by the UPC? I've heard many of the New Brunswick pioneers preach, and they sure convinced me that they believed holiness standards.I agree with you ML that the standards for Christians in general in NB were most likely present prior to the formation of the UPC of NB. I know that there were many standard teachings that were nothing more than the personal convictions of some men who were able to popularize these into holiness issues, but at the same time, today it seems the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction to the point that many Christians have no convictions at all.

[Thumper]

I have both heard and observed the same thing......

I have close relatives in that church. My family was connected with it to some extent since Bro. West was pastor waaaaaaay back in the day...... :haloplug

Wow yeah they go way back a long way. Are they still there? If so then I might know them. PM me there names if you want maybe we know each other???

[Felicity]

All kinds of things were preached against at one time..........

Skating at public rinks.
Swimming in public areas -- pools, beaches, lakes, etc.
Watching TV
Cutting hair
Wearing pants/shorts

One of the ladies I respect above most in the world told me once that reading comics was preached against and she wouldn't do so at one time.

Listening/singing worldy music

Even Ladies Auxiliary. :killinme

[Maple Leaf]

All kinds of things were preached against at one time..........

Skating at public rinks.
Swimming in public areas -- pools, beaches, lakes, etc.
Watching TV
Cutting hair
Wearing pants/shorts

One of the ladies I respect above most in the world told me once that reading comics was preached against and she wouldn't do so at one time.

Listening/singing worldy music

Even Ladies Auxiliary. :killinme

That reminds me of a story my father used to like to tell.

My grandfather Clyde was in the habit of taking the comics out of the Star Weekly, and throwing them out the window as he drove home in the brick plant truck.

As the story goes, one week, as he was making this heave and wave offering to the Lord, the local constabulary pulled him over and fined him for littering.

Which just proves that it costs to be holy.

[Barb]

All kinds of things were preached against at one time..........

Skating at public rinks.
Swimming in public areas -- pools, beaches, lakes, etc.
Watching TV
Cutting hair
Wearing pants/shorts

One of the ladies I respect above most in the world told me once that reading comics was preached against and she wouldn't do so at one time.

Listening/singing worldy music

Even Ladies Auxiliary. :killinme

That reminds me of a story my father used to like to tell.

My grandfather Clyde was in the habit of taking the comics out of the Star Weekly, and throwing them out the window as he drove home in the brick plant truck.

As the story goes, one week, as he was making this heave and wave offering to the Lord, the local constabulary pulled him over and fined him for littering.

Which just proves that it costs to be holy.

My mom tells the story of her then pastor's wife saying that playing pickup sticks was a sin...I kid you not!!

The killer is many years later, this dear Saint is in her high 70s and spending the weekend with us. She sent me to the video store to rent Sister Act Two with Whoopie Goldberg, AND wanted to play Rook or some game and needed a real deck of cards...:sshhh

[Barb]

All kinds of things were preached against at one time..........

Skating at public rinks.
Swimming in public areas -- pools, beaches, lakes, etc.
Watching TV
Cutting hair
Wearing pants/shorts

One of the ladies I respect above most in the world told me once that reading comics was preached against and she wouldn't do so at one time.

Listening/singing worldy music

Even Ladies Auxiliary. :killinme :huh

[Felicity]

:huh'Tis true! :killinme

[Barb]

'Tis true! :killinme

Yeah, girl...but why?! No wait...need to go...tell me later!!:lol

[Felicity]

Yeah, girl...but why?! No wait...need to go...tell me later!!:lolOkay! I'll tell you and then you can tell me you know what. :killinme

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

All kinds of things were preached against at one time..........

Skating at public rinks.
Swimming in public areas -- pools, beaches, lakes, etc.
Watching TV
Cutting hair
Wearing pants/shorts

One of the ladies I respect above most in the world told me once that reading comics was preached against and she wouldn't do so at one time.

Listening/singing worldy music

Even Ladies Auxiliary. :killinme

My wife cringes at me reading the Comics. Her Grandfather was as Maple Leaf describes and preached "Funny pages are only for Funny People." He started 31 churches all over NH, Maine and NB. Her Father used to tell of going to a fellowship meeting and you never knew if the preacher that day was going to be Jesus Name or a Trinity preacher also.

They were both glad in when the Pine Tree District was broken from Pennsylvania and again when they divided into three New England Districts. NB never did divide, but did not have the number of churches the US did either.

[Maple Leaf]

My wife cringes at me reading the Comics. Her Grandfather was as Maple Leaf describes and preached "Funny pages are only for Funny People." He started 31 churches all over NH, Maine and NB. Her Father used to tell of going to a fellowship meeting and you never knew if the preacher that day was going to be Jesus Name or a Trinity preacher also.

They were both glad in when the Pine Tree District was broken from Pennsylvania and again when they divided into three New England Districts. NB never did divide, but did not have the number of churches the US did either.

The original Atlantic Canadian (Maritime) District included Quebec, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Isalnd, Nona Scotia, and Newfoundland.

Nova Scotia and Newfoundland were spun off into a new district.

Later, Newfoundland was made a separate home missions district.

Approximately a decade or so ago Quebec became a distinct home missions district.

The Atlantic District now is composed of churches in New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island.

And, Her Royal Majesty Queen Elizabeth is Sovereign over all her loyal subjects in theis glorious Dominion of Canada. God save the Queen, and God save Canada from the reign of her get.


What NB churches did Sis. BOOM's grandfather found, and how far to the east are you travelling this summer?

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

What NB churches did Sis. BOOM's grandfather found?

He was Harvey Howe. He passed in 1985.

I know he started the church in Houlton and they had a plywood mill there. He worked in the mill and they had workers from both sides of the border as I recall.

Harvey told this man to never, never, never, never touch the veneer when the blade was moving. Down the blade came, and the veneer was warped in the machine. The apprentice went to straighten (hope no dinner being eaten) and whoomp! all four fingers. So they took the young man to the hospital and while there, the doctor stated. "It is a shame I don't have those fingers here." "Oh I have them in my pocket," was the reply. He had wrapped them in a hankerchief. As I recall the story the young man recovered.

[Barb]

Okay! I'll tell you and then you can tell me you know what. :killinme

You're so silly...:lol

[Destiny2]

I remember brother Howe,he used to come over to the harvey camp meetings

[TrueNorth]

So, when is little Birdie going to come and sing?

[Maple Leaf]

I remember brother Howe,he used to come over to the harvey camp meetings

See now dearie, there are some advantages to being an octogenarian.

Was that white haired preacher you were with at Canada Conference your son?

[Felicity]

You're so silly...:lolHa!

I'm just happy!! Very!!! :bliss :bliss :bliss

[Felicity]

See now dearie, there are some advantages to being an octogenarian.

Was that white haired preacher you were with at Canada Conference your son?White haired? No! It's impossible!

:)

[Truly Blessed]

I checked with the President of ACOP of Canada, Wes Mills about the quote from Tom Fudge's book. This is his reply;

"ACOP was founded by Franklin Small who clearly had a Oneness view of the Godhead. The Evangelical Churches of Pentecost had a tri-une view of the Godhead.

When the two groups merged in 1953, there was a tacit agreement that both views of the Godhead would be accepted according to the convictions of the individual members.

The statement in our Statement of Faith that deals with the Godhead is very carefully worded so that it is acceptable to both those with Oneness and Tri-une positions.

We do not identify ourselves as a “Oneness group” because we accept varying views on the Godhead."

[Truly Blessed]

He was Harvey Howe. He passed in 1985.

I know he started the church in Houlton and they had a plywood mill there. He worked in the mill and they had workers from both sides of the border as I recall.

Harvey told this man to never, never, never, never touch the veneer when the blade was moving. Down the blade came, and the veneer was warped in the machine. The apprentice went to straighten (hope no dinner being eaten) and whoomp! all four fingers. So they took the young man to the hospital and while there, the doctor stated. "It is a shame I don't have those fingers here." "Oh I have them in my pocket," was the reply. He had wrapped them in a hankerchief. As I recall the story the young man recovered.Being from Maine myself, I have very fond memories of Bro. Howe. He and his family were always at Peacove Family Camp each summer. I know his son David better than I knew Elder Bro. Howe himself.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

I checked with the President of ACOP of Canada, Wes Mills about the quote from Tom Fudge's book. This is his reply;

"ACOP was founded by Franklin Small who clearly had a Oneness view of the Godhead. The Evangelical Churches of Pentecost had a tri-une view of the Godhead.

When the two groups merged in 1953, there was a tacit agreement that both views of the Godhead would be accepted according to the convictions of the individual members.

The statement in our Statement of Faith that deals with the Godhead is very carefully worded so that it is acceptable to both those with Oneness and Tri-une positions.

We do not identify ourselves as a “Oneness group” because we accept varying views on the Godhead."

Was this an NB based org? In post #159 I told how my Father-in-law related how in many fellowship meetings you never knew before you got there who was preaching and many times the preacher wound up being a Trinity believer. This would have been in the 50's as my wife was born in 1961.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Being from Maine myself, I have very fond memories of Bro. Howe. He and his family were always at Peacove Family Camp each summer. I know his son David better than I knew Elder Bro. Howe himself.

He is going blind due to Diabetes from what I have heard!

[Truly Blessed]

Was this an NB based org? In post #159 I told how my Father-in-law related how in many fellowship meetings you never knew before you got there who was preaching and many times the preacher wound up being a Trinity believer. This would have been in the 50's as my wife was born in 1961.No, ACOP is basically a Western Canada based organization with its headquarters in Calgary, Alberta. I do recall going to fellowship services with my father when I was a young teenager and remember some of the names of men who I now realize were Trinitarians. I personally think it's sad that there is so much division over Godhead issues nowadays. Separation and isolation leads to even greater misunderstanding I think. Mutual respect and fellowship fosters dialogue that can lead to greater insights into one another's viewpoints.

[Truly Blessed]

He is going blind due to Diabetes from what I have heard!I'm sorry to hear that BOOM. Is he still pastoring in NH?

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

I'm sorry to hear that BOOM. Is he still pastoring in NH?

He is indeed still there.

[Maple Leaf]

I agree with you ML that the standards for Christians in general in NB were most likely present prior to the formation of the UPC of NB. I know that there were many standard teachings that were nothing more than the personal convictions of some men who were able to popularize these into holiness issues, but at the same time, today it seems the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction to the point that many Christians have no convictions at all.

Pastor Blessed

There is a sad truth in your final statement: "the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction to the point that many Christians have no convictions at all."

One of the greatest dangers facing the twenty first century church is the pressure to conformity that is coming from (To use an overused buzzword) a post-modern world. You can see its effect in the posts on this forum:

- Everybody has an idea, nobody has absolute truth, and every idea is of as much worth as any other.

- Everybody has an opinion, all opinions are valid, and strongly held convictions are an unpopular concept.

There are undoubtedly people who will sneer at the idea of you and I lamenting a lack of convictions among modern Christians, but the truth is that the North American church, not all, but a large segment, is drowning in a sea of worldliness: in love with money, drunken on pleasure, and full of pride.

Some are so infatuated with the concept of liberty that they can't tell the difference between the world and the Kingdom, and others have covered worldly hearts with a cloak of rules until they deceive themselves into thinking they're righteous when they're only religious.

God grant to the North American church transformation through the renewing of our minds until we will love God more than pleasure, and cease seeking entertainment at the altars of God. Lord, wash our eyes with the Heavenly eye salve until we will see the poverty of our materialism, and let our humbled hearts be broken at your altar until we will live as servants rather than entitled lords. Purify us from our religious worldliness until you can see the image of the Son of God in us. Amen.

[D&J]

That reminds me of a story my father used to like to tell.

My grandfather Clyde was in the habit of taking the comics out of the Star Weekly, and throwing them out the window as he drove home in the brick plant truck.

As the story goes, one week, as he was making this heave and wave offering to the Lord, the local constabulary pulled him over and fined him for littering.

Which just proves that it costs to be holy.

Interesting...

Let me weigh in on this thread for a minute by saying that I was raised in the home of one of the most awesome Bible teachers in the world whose middle name should have been "balance."

Although I never heard him ever put anybody in hell I was sure aware by the life he lived in front of us and still does that obedience to the Word of God was of utmost importance if you were going to spend eternity in heaven.

As far as the statement above about it costing to be holy, I know it may have been said "tongue in cheek" but I truly believe that it does cost a price to be holy and it is a cost that many seem like they are not willing to pay which is a slap in the face of a God who paid the ultimate price to free us from sin.

[Maple Leaf]

I checked with the President of ACOP of Canada, Wes Mills about the quote from Tom Fudge's book. This is his reply;

"ACOP was founded by Franklin Small who clearly had a Oneness view of the Godhead. The Evangelical Churches of Pentecost had a tri-une view of the Godhead.

When the two groups merged in 1953, there was a tacit agreement that both views of the Godhead would be accepted according to the convictions of the individual members.

The statement in our Statement of Faith that deals with the Godhead is very carefully worded so that it is acceptable to both those with Oneness and Tri-une positions.

We do not identify ourselves as a “Oneness group” because we accept varying views on the Godhead."


Thank you for taking the time to get clarification of the ACOP position.

I wonder how this issue is handled at the Full Gospel Bible Institute.

[Truly Blessed]

Thank you for taking the time to get clarification of the ACOP position.

I wonder how this issue is handled at the Full Gospel Bible Institute.Actually it is no longer called Full Gospel Bible Institute. The name was changed to Full Gospel Bible College and then more recently to Eston College. They are just completing an 8 year accreditation process and the college has become more like many Christian colleges, less denominational.

I had a meeting with a representative from the college in my office last week. In response to a number of questions I asked, I learned that only about 40% of the student body are from ACOP churches. The professors are from various denominational backgrounds. I was told that the college presents the various views of the Godhead without any one position being presented as the definitive truth on the subject.

While Eston College is an ACOP endorsed college, it is a separate entity from the ACOP with its own governing Board, etc. I was told that all staff must endorse the statement of faith which is the ACOP statement of faith.

[Truly Blessed]

Pastor Blessed

There is a sad truth in your final statement: "the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction to the point that many Christians have no convictions at all."

One of the greatest dangers facing the twenty first century church is the pressure to conformity that is coming from (To use an overused buzzword) a post-modern world. You can see its effect in the posts on this forum:

- Everybody has an idea, nobody has absolute truth, and every idea is of as much worth as any other.

- Everybody has an opinion, all opinions are valid, and strongly held convictions are an unpopular concept.

There are undoubtedly people who will sneer at the idea of you and I lamenting a lack of convictions among modern Christians, but the truth is that the North American church, not all, but a large segment, is drowning in a sea of worldliness: in love with money, drunken on pleasure, and full of pride.

Some are so infatuated with the concept of liberty that they can't tell the difference between the world and the Kingdom, and others have covered worldly hearts with a cloak of rules until they deceive themselves into thinking they're righteous when they're only religious.

God grant to the North American church transformation through the renewing of our minds until we will love God more than pleasure, and cease seeking entertainment at the altars of God. Lord, wash our eyes with the Heavenly eye salve until we will see the poverty of our materialism, and let our humbled hearts be broken at your altar until we will live as servants rather than entitled lords. Purify us from our religious worldliness until you can see the image of the Son of God in us. Amen.I join with you in your prayer for transformation. I have been working on a paper on Postmodernism for a degree I am working on. I have a much better understanding of the issues of this generation, but I have concluded that I disagree with how many Christian leaders are dealing with this emerging generation. I believe that if we're not careful we will be caught up in the deception of this last day that involves us finding out what the world wants and then giving them what they want simply to have a crowd.

I believe that we need to be real, relevent, and relational. I also believe we have a generation that wants us to be honest with them, who want to experience God, not simply know about God. The challenge is to be relevent without being ridiculous.

In my studies I read of one pastor who had tons of sand brought into the church sanctuary so folks could experience walking with Jesus through the sand as He would have done in His earthly ministry. :killinme

I still believe the only power that will bring sinners into a relationship with Jesus Christ so that they can experience God is the power of the Holy Spirit. I also believe the preaching of the cross is still God's method for bringing folks to true repentance and faith in God.

[Felicity]

He is indeed still there.He always seemed like such a sweet man to me. So friendly and down to earth. :)

[mfblume]

You mean McKillops, McElroy and Bustard. The Bustards are my uncles.

Yes and some of them preached outward holiness standards.

The one who preached it strongest was the eldest, William Bustard. He passed away a couple of years ago now. But he later admitted he did it too much, and later stressed more spiritual issues. He was an awesome mentor of mine. Mentor of mentors.

[Maple Leaf]

The Kennebecasis River

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/MapleLeaf_album/River.jpg


A New Brunswick Farm

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/MapleLeaf_album/Farm.jpg


New Brunswick is home to many Covered Bridges

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/MapleLeaf_album/CoveredBridge.jpg


About 1/2 mile from my front door.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/MapleLeaf_album/Marsh.jpg


The same scene with three deer feeding in the foreground.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/MapleLeaf_album/DeerFeeding.jpg


Sunset this evening

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/MapleLeaf_album/Sunset.jpg






The best way to see it all!

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/MapleLeaf_album/Motorcycle.jpg

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

He always seemed like such a sweet man to me. So friendly and down to earth. :)

I will see if I can get MrsB to help with photos on their Daughter's myspace page. (or is it EC?)

[Truly Blessed]

Maple Leaf,

I enjoyed seeing the pics. The drive from Sussex to Saint John was always an enjoyable one for me. It makes one a bit homesick for NB. Our financial secretary and his wife just returned from a month in Atlantic Canada. They really enjoyed their visit there. It was interesting to hear someone else's impression of a place that one has lived in for many years. One thing they couldn't get over was the strong French influence in NB.

[Felicity]

I will see if I can get MrsB to help with photos on their Daughter's myspace page. (or is it EC?)That would be great!

[Maple Leaf]

More New Brunswick scenery - The Tobique River, not far from Plaster Rock.


http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/MapleLeaf_album/River-1.jpg


http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/MapleLeaf_album/Ducks.jpg


http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/MapleLeaf_album/Barn.jpg

[StillStanding]

I'm mad at Canada right now! Their trying to steal the Nashville Predators! :club

[Maple Leaf]

The Famous Bay of Fundy Tides

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/MapleLeaf_album/HighTide.jpg


http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/MapleLeaf_album/LowTide.jpg


http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/MapleLeaf_album/LowTide2.jpg



The Fundy Trail Parkway


http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/MapleLeaf_album/Trail.jpg


http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/MapleLeaf_album/FullerFalls.jpg

[Maple Leaf]

I'm mad at Canada right now! Their trying to steal the Nashville Predators! :club

My Fine American Friend,

The Nashville Predators have fifteen Canadians on their roster, and only two Americans. We're just trying to bring our boys back home from the wasteland they've been living in.


http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/MapleLeaf_album/NashvillePredators.jpg

[StillStanding]

My Fine American Friend,

The Nashville Predators have fifteen Canadians on their roster, and only two Americans. We're just trying to bring our boys back home from the wasteland they've been living in.

I think it's more like your boys journeyed to the warm promised land, and are now being forced to return to Egypt!

You guys are Indian-givers. You tease us with a little ice action, then just when us hillbillies start getting use to it.......

[Maple Leaf]

I think it's more like your boys journeyed to the warm promised land, and are now being forced to return to Egypt!

You guys are Indian-givers. You tease us with a little ice action, then just when us hillbillies start getting use to it.......

The problem they're having is that they can find a better game of hockey on any pond in Canada than in the best rinks in the USA. The only way they can get a good game going down there is to play another team that's stacked with Canadian players.

You are labouring under the false impression that everybody likes warm weather. I prefer a crisp morning when you can see your frosted breath to a hot day when the air feels like a belch from the gaping mouth of the bubbling pit itself.

Egypt's not a bad place for Egyptians to live.

[StillStanding]

The problem they're having is that they can find a better game of hockey on any pond in Canada than in the best rinks in the USA. The only way they can get a good game going down there is to play another team that's stacked with Canadian players.

You are labouring under the false impression that everybody likes warm weather. I prefer a crisp morning when you can see your frosted breath to a hot day when the air feels like a belch from the gaping mouth of the bubbling pit itself.

Egypt's not a bad place for Egyptians to live.

Well, any pond game here would require some sort of water ski! :) That's the problem the NHL has here; very few have ever played hockey themselves. We have to 'create' ice in these parts. Most of it goes to cool our drinks! :)

You can have your cold weather! I prefer to play a round of golf without having to take off two layers of clothing and thawing out my hands before each shot! I like watching a game without requiring to have special packs to keep from getting freeze burns! I don't like shivering for two hours after I finally find a warm place! :)

[TrueNorth]

They are already taking deposits for season tickets for the Hamilton Predators. Think I read they have sold over 5,000 in the lower bowl, 47 out of 60 luxury boxes.

[StillStanding]

They are already taking deposits for season tickets for the Hamilton Predators. Think I read they have sold over 5,000 in the lower bowl, 47 out of 60 luxury boxes.
I read today that a local (Nashville) group of business men are preparing to make a counter proposal to buy the team and keep them in Nashville.

BTW, I hope the new iphone causes Blackberry to go out of business! The Canadian buyer of the Predators owns Blackberry! :)

[Thumper]

They are already taking deposits for season tickets for the Hamilton Predators. Think I read they have sold over 5,000 in the lower bowl, 47 out of 60 luxury boxes.

I read today that a local (Nashville) group of business men are preparing to make a counter proposal to buy the team and keep them in Nashville.

BTW, I hope the new iphone causes Blackberry to go out of business! The Canadian buyer of the Predators owns Blackberry! :)
I read somewhere that it was a done deal. The only hurdle was from the league and that was some sort season ticket sale quota.

I can comiserate with you though PM. We were just starting to get used to Basketball and that Fed ex snake lied and stole them away to memphis. :)

[StillStanding]

I read somewhere that it was a done deal. The only hurdle was from the league and that was some sort season ticket sale quota.

I can comiserate with you though PM. We were just starting to get used to Basketball and that Fed ex snake lied and stole them away to memphis. :)
*Gulp!* I forgot about that! :)

If Nashville can average 14,000+ per game in attendance this coming year, the team can't break the lease with the city. The lease states that the team can break the lease only after 3 straight seasons of sub 14,000 per game attendance. Last year Nashville averaged 13,800 per game. We should be able to easily top tha mark this coming season, meaning the Predators would remain in Nashville for at least four more years! hahahahahaha!

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

All this high sticking has nothing to do with the Churches in Canada!

:canada



No one compares to The Great One and those Bruins anyway!

[Thumper]

*Gulp!* I forgot about that! :)

If Nashville can average 14,000+ per game in attendance this coming year, the team can't break the lease with the city. The lease states that the team can break the lease only after 3 straight seasons of sub 14,000 per game attendance. Last year Nashville averaged 13,800 per game. We should be able to easily top tha mark this coming season, meaning the Predators would remain in Nashville for at least four more years! hahahahahaha!

Or they can do what they did in Vancouver with the Grizzlies and dry up all the comp tickets, stop marketing and constantly talk about leaving. Eventually everyone says, "who cares" and the owners can say "see only 12500 again tonight" and away they go to whereever they want to go.

Hamilton is a great Hockey town and the team will do well there. Next we can rescue the Panthers and move them to Halifax or some other worthy city.

:)

[Thumper]

All this high sticking has nothing to do with the Churches in Canada!

:canada



No one compares to The Great One and those Bruins anyway!

Sheesh americans *shakes head*

"The Great One" never played for the Bruins. The Bruins haven't been worth talking about since some time in the 80's

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Hamilton is a great Hockey town and the team will do well there. Next we can rescue the Panthers and move them to Halifax or some other worthy city.

:)

Can you get those Ruskies and Czeck players Visas to travel that far North?

:sshhh

[Thumper]

Can you get those Ruskies and Czeck players Visas to travel that far North?

:sshhh

Canada has a fast track for imigrants from Russia, Czeck, Slovak, Finn or Swede. We even let a couple of americans in under what is known as the "yeah but he can skate" clause of the immigration act.

:)

[StillStanding]

Canada has a fast track for imigrants from Russia, Czeck, Slovak, Finn or Swede. We even let a couple of americans in under what is known as the "yeah but he can skate" clause of the immigration act.

:)
Could you use a few Mexicans? :D

[Thumper]

Oh and as a side note to all you americans.

We pounded your sorry carcasses into the ground on the Rugby pitch last weekend also.

52 - 10

Read the gory details here (http://www.rugbycanada.ca/index.php?page_id=10&lang=en&news_id=3152)

[Thumper]

Could you use a few Mexicans? :D

Can they skate????

[StillStanding]

Can they skate????
If you'll take them, the American taxpayers will gladly train them to skate! :D

[Maple Leaf]

Having nothing to say, but wanting to contribute to this riveting discussion of the world's greatest game, I've dug up an old post from the Sports Forum on the original FCF.

Ping Pong: An amusing pastime for obsessive compulsive Bible College students who lack athletic ability. A pretend tennis game for pretend athletes.

Basketball: A sport invented by Canadians to keep arenas busy between hockey games. A harmless way for people who are too tall to work the cash registers at MacDonalds to fill in time.

Baseball: A spectator sport that is wildly popular among the comatose. An exciting alternative to watching paint dry. Its single redeeming feature is its provision of comic material to Abbot and Costello.

Football: A sport played in the mud by overweight wannabe athletes who can't skate. A helpful self esteem builder for the athletically impaired.

Hockey: The reason why God created ice.

Canadian Hockey: The reason why God created gold medals.:killinme

[Maple Leaf]

Canada has a fast track for imigrants from Russia, Czeck, Slovak, Finn or Swede. We even let a couple of americans in under what is known as the "yeah but he can skate" clause of the immigration act.

:)

The next question is, "If he can't skate, will he fight?" If he can't skate and won't fight, we send him south to play football with the NFL.

[TrueNorth]

A first grade teacher explains to her class that she is a Toronto Maple Leafs fan. She asks her students to raise their hands if they are Leaf fans too. Not really knowing what an Leaf fan is, but wanting to be liked by their teacher, their hands fly into the air.

There is, however, one exception. A little girl has not gone along with the crowd. The teacher asks her why she has decided to be different.

"Because I'm not an Leafs fan," she retorts.

"Then," asks her teacher, "what are you?"

"I'm a proud Vancouver Canucks Fan," boasts the little girl.

The teacher is a little perturbed now, her face slightly red. She asks the little girl why she is a Canuck fan.

"Well, my Dad and Mom are Canuck fans, so I'm a Canuck fan too," she responds.

The teacher is now angry. "That's no reason," she says loudly. "What if your Mom was a moron and your Dad was an idiot. What would you be then?"

"Oh," says the little girl. "Well, then I'd be an Leaf fan."

[TrueNorth]

A seven year old boy from Toronto was at the centre of a courtroom drama in an Ontario Superior Courthouse this morning when he challenged a court ruling over who should have legal custody of the juvenile. The boy has a history of being beaten repeatedly by both parents and the judge had previously awarded custody to the boy's aunt.

The boy confirmed that his aunt beat him more than his parents and refused to live there. When the judge then suggested that he be placed with his grandparents, the boy cried out that they beat him more severely than anyone. The judge, in an unprecedented ruling, dramatically allowed the boy, in spite of his youth and obvious inexperience, to make his own choice as to who should have legal guardianship over him.

In front of a packed and cheering courtroom this morning, custody was subsequently granted to the TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS as the boy stated his firm belief that they are, in point of fact, not capable of beating anyone.

...and so the season begins !!!

[Rico]

I think it's more like your boys journeyed to the warm promised land, and are now being forced to return to Egypt!

You guys are Indian-givers. You tease us with a little ice action, then just when us hillbillies start getting use to it.......

More like the frozen tundra! LOL

[Ron]

A first grade teacher explains to her class that she is a Toronto Maple Leafs fan. She asks her students to raise their hands if they are Leaf fans too. Not really knowing what an Leaf fan is, but wanting to be liked by their teacher, their hands fly into the air.

There is, however, one exception. A little girl has not gone along with the crowd. The teacher asks her why she has decided to be different.

"Because I'm not an Leafs fan," she retorts.

"Then," asks her teacher, "what are you?"

"I'm a proud Vancouver Canucks Fan," boasts the little girl.

The teacher is a little perturbed now, her face slightly red. She asks the little girl why she is a Canuck fan.

"Well, my Dad and Mom are Canuck fans, so I'm a Canuck fan too," she responds.

The teacher is now angry. "That's no reason," she says loudly. "What if your Mom was a moron and your Dad was an idiot. What would you be then?"

"Oh," says the little girl. "Well, then I'd be an Leaf fan."

:killinme:killinme:lol:lol

Every once in a while there is a nugget of truth that comes forth that can not be denied!!:sly

[Sheltiedad]

I have to go to Montreal soon... those folks better learn to speak English before I get there. :D

[Maple Leaf]

I have to go to Montreal soon... those folks better learn to speak English before I get there. :D

You won't have any problem in Montreal. I have a family member that has spent a lot of time there on business, and he barely speaks English, let alone French, and he's gotten by okay.

As a matter of fact, we had a long time Prime Minister from Quebec, who made himself a millionaire doing business there, and he couldn't speak French or English either.

[Felicity]

You won't have any problem in Montreal. I have a family member that has spent a lot of time there on business, and he barely speaks English, let alone French, and he's gotten by okay.

As a matter of fact, we had a long time Prime Minister from Quebec, who made himself a millionaire doing business there, and he couldn't speak French or English either. :toofunny

[Maple Leaf]

I borrowed this post from another thread to ask if this is being preached or practiced in the Atlantic District.

There are very few things on these forums that I pay much more than casual attention to, but this startled me.


I disagree… there are women who do believe that the hair has literal power. Almost mystical, magical or whatever… it is heresy…. I feel so strongly against it, I believe it to be idolatry. Some just cannot except that by Faith we are healed… through Jesus… he doesn't want or need our hair to heal. It is giving glory to our flesh/works and not him.

This doctrine has a big grip on many women of the church I attend and even the district I live in. My church is a fairly progressive church, but of those women who are the staunch supporters of "uncut" hair truly believe that power is in that uncut hair. They don't condemn those with cut hair or put them in hell…but will make comments as to what they are missing.

In a recent prayer meeting, one of the pastor's wives took down her uncut hair and wrapped it around her grandson born with disabilities and prayed for his healing. I was sick to my stomach… I've also seen women stroking their hair and overheard their prayers while in our altars about needs in their lives…one women hasn't been able to conceive and has desperately prayed with her hair.

I've heard and seen enough that I responded to an email from a women in our church on this subject. I never once mentioned anything against "uncut" hair. I would never disrespect my pastor, but I totally came against the doctrine of "power in hair" scripturally. I stirred up a hornets nest that I didn't think I was going to recover from.. however, I also know that some people responded in email and thanked me… and even had ministerial staff who got into the email exchange thank me in person and told me to keep studying… God was going to use me.

In the last six months, I have seen women take down the hair to dance because worshipping with the hair looses bonds?? This has happened in my church and others. I was asked to do it and when I refused, I was told I was missing deliverance in my life.

At a convention service this year, my daughter (and all women at the service) was asked from the pulpit to take down her hair and dance. She was in the altar area worshipping when this was asked… she was obedient to the minister in the pulpit…took down her hair… then she looked around .. began to cry and ran to the back of the church and stood with me. I told her it was her choice to go along with them or not.... but why was she crying? She said "I looked around and felt for the women who are black in the altars who don't have long hair… I felt for the women who are new and their hair isn't long…she said she just couldn't do it. The preacher was glorifying long hair and the power that women had over the devil through their uncut hair. Supposedly some witch told him of the supernatural powers our women have in their hair and the devil is afraid of it… tell your women never to cut their hair.

absurd... totally absurd.

[Thumper]

I borrowed this post from another thread to ask if this is being preached or practiced in the Atlantic District.

There are very few things on these forums that I pay much more than casual attention to, but this startled me.

While I'm not connected with the UPC any more. I had never seen it out here in BC.

[Destiny2]

Surely not in Canada! Let this doctrine stay Stateside!

[Felicity]

Surely not in Canada! Let this doctrine stay Stateside!There are those even in AD who believe in some form of this teaching (or at least they did).

The first time I heard it was at a Ladies Retreat. I was sitting at the table with the L.A. District leader and other members of the committee and when we heard what was being presented we all just kind of gasped inwardly. I was so upset at how this might affect the women attending, particularly those who cut their hair and newcomers.

[Thumper]

Back to the subject of this thread, an independent Canadian UPC. I just hung up the phone with someone I was sure would be able to give me the inside scoop for sure.

NOT

So no info yet but I'll keep digging. :)

[Maple Leaf]

Back to the subject of this thread, an independent Canadian UPC. I just hung up the phone with someone I was sure would be able to give me the inside scoop for sure.

NOT

So no info yet but I'll keep digging. :)


Any licensed UPC minister in Canada should be able to give you the scoop.

Somebody needs to get under conviction and help Thumper.

Maybe Thad will be proven right after all.

An independent Canadian UPC;

Is it coming soon?

Or not?

From the west,

or will he slip it in from the east.

Maybe Thad will be proven right after all.

Somebody needs to get under conviction and help Thumper.

Could I mean the astute will seek out the scoop in one of St. Paul's epistles?

[TrueNorth]

Any licensed UPC minister in Canada should be able to give you the scoop.

Somebody needs to get under conviction and help Thumper.

Maybe Thad will be proven right after all.

An independent Canadian UPC;

Is it coming soon?

Or not?

From the west,

or will he slip it in from the east.

Maybe Thad will be proven right after all.

Somebody needs to get under conviction and help Thumper.

Could I mean the astute will seek out the scoop in one of St. Paul's epistles?

I already gave the inside and the outside scoop - all the scoop there is.
There is no ongoing saga here.

[Maple Leaf]

I already gave the inside and the outside scoop - all the scoop there is.
There is no ongoing saga here.


Your cryptic "ongoing saga" comment should tweak Thumper's interest.

I think I'll wait to see what Thumper comes up with.

Dig, Thumper, dig.

What is True North trying to hide from the unwashed?

Is there a burgeoning separatist movement in the UPC of Canada?

[Truly Blessed]

I will predict that eventually Canadians will one day awaken and realize they have been an appendage of the American church long enough and will see the value of their own Canadian organization. I prefer to use the word "national" rather than "independent". I have always had a problem understanding why Canada would not be its own national organization as every other nation in the world. Why should it be just an appendage simply because it is located next to the USA? Mexico is its own national organization, not just a collection of districts within an American organization. Is it an insecurity/inferiority issue or what?

[Maple Leaf]

Sovereignty association was a central concept of the separatist Quebec political party the Parti-Québécois (PQ) when it was led by René Lévesque. The term sovereignty association refers to the province of Quebec being politically independent from Canada but continuing to have an economic association or partnership with Canada. Examples of an economic partnership given by the PQ included free trade, tariffs on imports and a common currency.

Has the growth of the Quebecois constituency within the UPCC given rise to a Canadian demand for sovereignty association with the UPCI?

Does the UPCC have a charismatic René Lévesque to lead the separatist movement?

Will there be a referendum in the UPCC's future?

And, the big question, "If the UPCI is divisible, is the UPCC also divisible?"

Vive le UPCC libre!

[D&J]

It is my humble opinion that we need to determine who we are as the UPCC. Once that determination is made then we need to proceed in a very set course that I believe will give clarity and power to our mission.

[Felicity]

I've heard through the grapevine ..... :) .... that the majority of AD men would vote in favour of such a resolution.

[Maple Leaf]

It is my humble opinion that we need to determine who we are as the UPCC. Once that determination is made then we need to proceed in a very set course that I believe will give clarity and power to our mission.


This is an excellent observation.

I think that one major factor in the Canadian equation is regionalism. Would it ever be possible to have a truly United PC in a divided Canada? Would the brethren from the West accept a leader from the East? Would the Brethren from the East be happy with a leader from the West?

The Canadian solution has typically been to elect Prime Ministers from Quebec, an answer that is not particularly palatable to either East or West, but more appealing than the alternative.

Ontario appears to be the growth centre of the UPCC. Could a Superintendent from Ontario be expected to have a vision that extends beyond his own backyard? Would Atlantic Canada suffer the same consequences in a religious organization as it has had inflicted upon it by Confederation?

[Maple Leaf]

I've heard through the grapevine ..... :) .... that the majority of AD men would vote in favour of such a resolution.

But, would they if they thought for a moment that the first Superintendent would receive his mail in BC?

[Felicity]

This is an excellent observation.

I think that one major factor in the Canadian equation is regionalism. Would it ever be possible to have a truly United PC in a divided Canada? Would the brethren from the West accept a leader from the East? Would the Brethren from the East be happy with a leader from the West?

The Canadian solution has typically been to elect Prime Ministers from Quebec, an answer that is not particularly palatable to either East or West, but more appealing than the alternative.

Ontario appears to be the growth centre of the UPCC. Could a Superintendent from Ontario be expected to have a vision that extends beyond his own backyard? Would Atlantic Canada suffer the same consequences in a religious organization as it has had inflicted upon it by Confederation?I think a Supt. from Ontario could have a vision beyond his own backdoor as much as a Maritimer could.

Certainly though the differences between East and West is well .... as far as the distance from East to West. :D

[Felicity]

But, would they if they thought for a moment that the first Superintendent would receive his mail in BC?LOL! :killinme I choked on that as I swallowed my now lukewarm coffee.

[TrueNorth]

I've heard through the grapevine ..... :) .... that the majority of AD men would vote in favour of such a resolution.

A resolution for what?
In theory I am in favor of a Canadian organization. I am Canadian, self-rule for Canada! Let's have a made in Canada Superintendent! Add another level of bureaucracy for Canadians to pay for! At least we will have a warm and fuzzy feeling about it all.
Who cares about the problems - who cares whether it is the best thing or not. I am Canadian!

[Felicity]

A resolution for what?
In theory I am in favor of a Canadian organization. I am Canadian, self-rule for Canada! Let's have a made in Canada Superintendent! Add another level of bureaucracy for Canadians to pay for! At least we will have a warm and fuzzy feeling about it all.
Who cares about the problems - who cares whether it is the best thing or not. I am Canadian!Resolution for whatever it is they're thinking about doing if they're actually seriously thinking about doing it which seems to be the case. LOL.

I have my own reservations which I've expressed before. But I'm definitely a proud and loyal Canadian. Mais oui monsier!!

Vive le Canada! :canada

[Maple Leaf]

A resolution for what?
In theory I am in favor of a Canadian organization. I am Canadian, self-rule for Canada! Let's have a made in Canada Superintendent! Add another level of bureaucracy for Canadians to pay for! At least we will have a warm and fuzzy feeling about it all.
Who cares about the problems - who cares whether it is the best thing or not. I am Canadian!

But, when a Canadian says, "I am Canadian!" What does he mean? Is there an overarching Canadian identity that is shared from sea to sea to sea? Or, does every Canadian define Canadian with their own regional definition?

If the future of the UPC was more than an academic consideration for me, I would oppose an autonomous UPCC. The UPCC is too small, too divided, and too dispersed geographically to ever form an effective autonomous organization.

Hazelwood is not the reason for any real or perceived lack of evangelism in Canada. The reason for any lack of evangelism in Canada lies much closer to home. In what way have the American brethren hindered Canadians from evangelizing Canada?

[D&J]

I think a Supt. from Ontario could have a vision beyond his own backdoor as much as a Maritimer could.

Certainly though the differences between East and West is well .... as far as the distance from East to West. :D

I realize that there is some differences, to put it mildly, between the east and west of Canada but it is my humble opinion that the current Executive Presbyter of Canada is a very balanced man who not only handles himself very well in a business session but also pastors the largest UPC in Canada.

[Felicity]

I realize that there is some differences, to put it mildly, between the east and west of Canada but it is my humble opinion that the current Executive Presbyter of Canada is a very balanced man who not only handles himself very well in a business session but also pastors the largest UPC in Canada.I agree with you on the current guy. :thumbsup

[TrueNorth]

But, when a Canadian says, "I am Canadian!" What does he mean? Is there an overarching Canadian identity that is shared from sea to sea to sea? Or, does every Canadian define Canadian with their own regional definition?

If the future of the UPC was more than an academic consideration for me, I would oppose an autonomous UPCC. The UPCC is too small, too divided, and too dispersed geographically to ever form an effective autonomous organization.

Hazelwood is not the reason for any real or perceived lack of evangelism in Canada. The reason for any lack of evangelism in Canada lies much closer to home. In what way have the American brethren hindered Canadians from evangelizing Canada?

My previous point exactly. To blame the US is a cop out. Even with a Canadian organization evangelism would continue to be a District function.
But, this whole exercise in letter writing to my mind was never about evangelism, it was about power.

[D&J]

Hazelwood is not the reason for any real or perceived lack of evangelism in Canada. The reason for any lack of evangelism in Canada lies much closer to home. In what way have the American brethren hindered Canadians from evangelizing Canada?


It is true that Hazelwood is not the reason for a lack of evangelism in Canada. I think one thing that holds us back is a lack of defination of who we really are which affects our unity and our purpose.

[Maple Leaf]

I realize that there is some differences, to put it mildly, between the east and west of Canada but it is my humble opinion that the current Executive Presbyter of Canada is a very balanced man who not only handles himself very well in a business session but also pastors the largest UPC in Canada.

Without a doubt, from all reports, the current Executive Presbyter would be well qualified to superintend an autonomous UPCC, but would a man of his calibre be willing to leave his thriving Church to be General Superintendent of a 16,000 member organization. Would an autonomous UPCC be financially able to support an executive staff?

[D&J]

But, this whole exercise in letter writing to my mind was never about evangelism, it was about power.

Ummm... or maybe the percieved, real or unreal, loss of power...

[Felicity]

It is true that Hazelwood is not the reason for a lack of evangelism in Canada. I think one thing that holds us back is a lack of defination of who we really are which affects our unity and our purpose.But is it possible that Canada sometimes is distracted by all the demands for attention made by Hazelwood in regard to any number and variety of things?

Just asking the question is all. :largehalo

[D&J]

I agree with you on the current guy. :thumbsup

From what I have observed he is one sharp operator and is not afraid to take a stand. Another thing that stands out to me is his ability to deal with things without any overwhelming show of emotion.

I personally had nothing to do with him getting into the office :lol but I highly respect him.

[Truly Blessed]

This is an excellent observation.

I think that one major factor in the Canadian equation is regionalism. Would it ever be possible to have a truly United PC in a divided Canada? Would the brethren from the West accept a leader from the East? Would the Brethren from the East be happy with a leader from the West?

The Canadian solution has typically been to elect Prime Ministers from Quebec, an answer that is not particularly palatable to either East or West, but more appealing than the alternative.

Ontario appears to be the growth centre of the UPCC. Could a Superintendent from Ontario be expected to have a vision that extends beyond his own backyard? Would Atlantic Canada suffer the same consequences in a religious organization as it has had inflicted upon it by Confederation?First of all, from what I hear there is no united UPCI as the organization stands right now, so its not as if Canada would be leaving a united organization for one that may not be as united as one would desire. Second, the dynamics of Canada are what they are, its what makes Canada the nation that it is. So, yes, a Canadian organization would reflect the dynamic of Canada, but don't you have this dynamic anyway? Third, I have a difficult time understanding why having a Gen. Supt. with his address in Hazelwood is any different than having one whose address is BC. Fourth, the chance of a BC Supt. would be very slim considering that they would have a great challenge gathering enough votes from AD and Ontario to get elected.

[Maple Leaf]

How would an autonomous UPCC be governed?

Seventy five percent (75%) of the constituents of the UPCC live between Moncton and Manitoba.

Steps would need to be taken to ensure that the rest of Canada not become disenfranchised in the union?

Would the UPCC wind up being governed by a Senate type of body. Unelected, Ineffective, and Impotent.

[D&J]

Would an autonomous UPCC be financially able to support an executive staff?

Wow... this may really be the issue - finances!!

[Felicity]

From what I have observed he is one sharp operator and is not afraid to take a stand. Another thing that stands out to me is his ability to deal with things without any overwhelming show of emotion.

I personally had nothing to do with him getting into the office :lol but I highly respect him.We met the family years back. I was highly impressed!!

[Truly Blessed]

It is true that Hazelwood is not the reason for a lack of evangelism in Canada. I think one thing that holds us back is a lack of defination of who we really are which affects our unity and our purpose.This is a good point D&J. What I find with Canadians is that they tend to be followers and because they have been willing to be absorbed into an American organization they have no true Canadian identity. Having been in the UPCI and now 10 years in ACOP, I can tell you there is a real difference between an organization that is Canadian and one that is simply a group of districts within an American organization.

[TrueNorth]

It is true that Hazelwood is not the reason for a lack of evangelism in Canada. I think one thing that holds us back is a lack of defination of who we really are which affects our unity and our purpose.

I respectfully have to disagree with the last statement.
What really holds us back is a change of mentality and a socialization of what it means to be a Christian.
We have become content to be comfortable, a malaise that is not only in the pulpit but also in the pew. The key to national revival does not lie with Hazelwood, Toronto or anywhere else, it lies in each local church fulfilling the great commission where they are.
Our problem today is we spend all our time defining who we are and what our purpose is and what our challenges are and we never just get down to doing what we are supposed to be doing. No national governing body or definition can change that.
There is a large group of our constituency who are cultural pentecostals. It's all they know and they have much of the "stuff" down pat - but lack the fire and fervency to change the world.

[Maple Leaf]

I respectfully have to disagree with the last statement.
What really holds us back is a change of mentality and a socialization of what it means to be a Christian.
We have become content to be comfortable, a malaise that is not only in the pulpit but also in the pew. The key to national revival does not lie with Hazelwood, Toronto or anywhere else, it lies in each local church fulfilling the great commission where they are.
Our problem today is we spend all our time defining who we are and what our purpose is and what our challenges are and we never just get down to doing what we are supposed to be doing. No national governing body or definition can change that.
There is a large group of our constituency who are cultural pentecostals. It's all they know and they have much of the "stuff" down pat - but lack the fire and fervency to change the world.

Yahoo!

True North is really preaching now.

Comfortable cultural Pentecostals wallowing in a morass of malaise.

[Thumper]

OK here is the scoop,

There is no story apparently. Sort of...

According to a source very close to the previously mentioned western epicentre there is nothing afloat from this quarter.

However, I have a sneaking suspicion that what I was told last night is not neccesarily 100% accurate. As has been documented here earlier there have been some letters written but now these letters are being denied.

Don't worry Maple leaf I will get to the bottom of it if I have to camp out on the door step of the Royal Palace.

:)

[Felicity]

OK here is the scoop,

There is no story apparently. Sort of...

According to a source very close to the previously mentioned western epicentre there is nothing afloat from this quarter.

However, I have a sneaking suspicion that what I was told last night is not neccesarily 100% accurate. As has been documented here earlier there have been some letters written but now these letters are being denied.

Don't worry Maple leaf I will get to the bottom of it if I have to camp out on the door step of the Royal Palace.

:)I think there is a story. My sources say this is indeed an issue. :cool:

LOL. :)