Please point me to one Oneness Person that says that God believes Himself to be His own Son...
Are the Father and the Son the same person? Is there one "self" or two "selves"?
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Again who says he wrestles with two minds within Himself?
Two wills. Jesus separated his own will from his Father's will. "Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done."
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More or less but the Father is not the Son. They might be the same Person but HOW Father and Son exist and function are distinct. Some call that 'manifestation' and others call them "modes"
So they are the same person, in different manifestations, or modes. OK. And these manifestations talk to each other, have different wills, know different things.
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First begotten OVER creation. It is a term of status. It means as the only begotten Son of God He is over all Creation
NET bible commentary
28 tn The Greek term πρωτότοκος (prōtotokos) could refer either to first in order of time, such as a first born child, or it could refer to one who is preeminent in rank. M. J. Harris, Colossians and Philemon (EGGNT), 43, expresses the meaning of the word well: "The 'firstborn' was either the eldest child in a family or a person of preeminent rank. The use of this term to describe the Davidic king in [LXX] Psa_88:28 LXX (=Psa_89:27 EVV), 'I will also appoint him my firstborn (πρωτότοκον), the most exalted of the kings of the earth,' indicates that it can denote supremacy in rank as well as priority in time. But whether the πρωτό- element in the word denotes time, rank, or both, the significance of the -τοκος element as indicating birth or origin (from τίκτω, give birth to) has been virtually lost except in ref. to lit. birth." In Col_1:15 the emphasis is on the priority of Jesus' rank as over and above creation (cf. Col_1:16 and the "for" clause referring to Jesus as Creator).
OK.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Are the Father and the Son the same person? Is there one "self" or two "selves"?
That depends entirely on what you mean by the word "Person". You see Timmy, the word PERSON is used with a special nuance in THEOLOGY that is generally not used in normal conversations.
For example you and I would be considered two different persons but by that we might mean two separate human beings.
Well in theology, for example in the trinity, the word "person" is used sans the notion of humanity and being. That is why Trinitarians say there is One God/being, not three because each PERSON is not a being but rather all three are the same 1 being.
In Oneness, though we say Father and Son are the same "self", Father and Son are the same Self existing and functioning in two distinct ways. The Son is God become one of us while the Father is God as He has always been before the incarnation.
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Two wills. Jesus separated his own will from his Father's will. "Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done."
Yes but the Son was not constantly in a struggle between both wills.
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So they are the same person, in different manifestations, or modes. OK. And these manifestations talk to each other, have different wills, know different things.
Yes because, as the Son, He has a complete human psyche...mind...will etc etc
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
That depends entirely on what you mean by the word "Person". You see Timmy, the word PERSON is used with a special nuance in THEOLOGY that is generally not used in normal conversations.
For example you and I would be considered two different persons but by that we might mean two separate human beings.
Well in theology, for example in the trinity, the word "person" is used sans the notion of humanity and being. That is why Trinitarians say there is One God/being, not three because each PERSON is not a being but rather all three are the same 1 being.
In Oneness, though we say Father and Son are the same "self", Father and Son are the same Self existing and functioning in two distinct ways. The Son is God become one of us while the Father is God as He has always been before the incarnation.
Yes but the Son was not constantly in a struggle between both wills.
Yes because, as the Son, He has a complete human psyche...mind...will etc etc
OK.
So, Prax, what do you think of the OP? Does the Trinitarian God have MPD/DID? Does the Oneness God?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
What exactly did Seekerman get wrong in his post? Point by point, please:
In oneness theology, there is one person
Can't argue there, can you?
who believes Himself to be His own son
The Bible speaks of the Son. The Son is God, isn't He? And the Son's Father is God? And God is one Person, yes? So he's right about this one, too, I suppose.
and who wrestles with two wills within Himself, doing something he doesn't want to do but does what he wants to do.
The Son's will was for the cup to pass from Him. But He did His Father's will, instead. Can't be this one that's wrong, I don't think.
This one person has a Father and God who is Himself,
The Son and the Father are one person. This one's right, too.
who was the firstbegotten of all creation.
Ah. This has to be it. It's the only one left. Did he get this one wrong?
Do you believe the dual nature of Christ?
Do you believe a man of Adam's race was required to make atonement for mankind?
Do you believe Jesus had to be deity to forgive sins?
Do you believe the man Christ had to be every bit "man" or some kind of hybrid or a lifeless carcass?
Do you believe heaven was empty when Christ walked the earth?
So, Prax, what do you think of the OP? Does the Trinitarian God have MPD/DID? Does the Oneness God?
MPD is a brain disorder. It's a condition where a single persons brain and psyche is messed up and they believe they are someone else when they are not.
The Trinity and Oneness are both theologies dealing with ontological realities
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Unless you believe Jesus is God manifest in flesh you do not believe in the Bible at all unless it is a New World Translation or Joseph Smiths version.
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