The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Well, argue with the bible then:

Ephesians 1:13 And now you also have heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.

John 7:39 When he said "living water," he was speaking of the Spirit, who would be given to everyone believing in him.

I John 4:15 All who proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God have God living in them, and they live in God.

I am not arguing against but understanding them within context of what is meant by belief.

Ephesians doesn't negate a thing I have said WHEN YOU BELIEVED he identified with you as his own giving his Spirit?

Correct... How do you know WHEN he identified "WITNESSED/ACCEPTED" you? Which is the points I have been making! The texts has have nothing against the points which are raised. People had already believed and had not received... Paul asked HAVE YOU SINCE which means it is not automatic reception without knowing THUS NOT BLIND FAITH.

John 7:39 AGAIN BELIEVING is the point by which we CAN receive it does not mean WE HAVE! THUS PAUL'S QUESTION IN ACTS 19!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1 John 4:15 This is true as a general statement of the saved. Was this true HOW YOU WANT IT TO MEAN AND REFER IN Acts 8? NO! Does Paul ask about confession or something WE do to confirm.... that you have received? NO! It's about THE SPIRIT and HIS MANIFEST PRESENCE!

As you KEEP dodging Acts 8 and 19

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

I am not arguing against but understanding them within context of what is meant by belief.

Ephesians doesn't negate a thing I have said WHEN YOU BELIEVED he identified with you as his own giving his Spirit?

••Actually, Ephesians 1:13 negates everything you've said. It very simply says, "And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago".

So do you believe that verse? Let's ask this...does every person who believes receive the Holy Spirit? That is what it says, so do you believe that? Would you take it to believe that if you believe, you will...as in a futuristic statement....receive the Holy Spirit?

Correct... How do you know WHEN he identified "WITNESSED/ACCEPTED" you?

••When I believed in my heart and confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord and that God has raised Him from the dead. Simple.

Which is the points I have been making! The texts has have nothing against the points which are raised.

••It has everything to do with it. It's a very simple statement that cannot be added to. Well, it can be added to, which you are doing, but it's not right.

People had already believed and had not received... Paul asked HAVE YOU SINCE which means it is not automatic reception without knowing THUS NOT BLIND FAITH.

••I'm gonna post something Chuck Smith said about this verse. I'm sure you'll disagree, but I'll put it in a separate post.

John 7:39 AGAIN BELIEVING is the point by which we CAN receive it does not mean WE HAVE! THUS PAUL'S QUESTION IN ACTS 19!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

••But it doesn't say, "If you believe you CAN receive". It says "Which will be given to everyone who believes."

1 John 4:15 This is true as a general statement of the saved. Was this true HOW YOU WANT IT TO MEAN AND REFER IN Acts 8? NO! Does Paul ask about confession or something WE do to confirm.... that you have received? NO! It's about THE SPIRIT and HIS MANIFEST PRESENCE!

As you KEEP dodging Acts 8 and 19

••What would you like to know...what Simon the sorcerer saw? There are a myriad of things he could have seen. Chuck Smith mentions the number of ways the Holy Spirit manifests itself. If you put Simon's testimony into a box where it can only mean "Tongues", you are doing the Holy Spirit a GREAT disservice. The Holy Spirit is SO much more and I hate to see you, or others limit it to that.

If one works hard enough at it, one can make any verse mean anything. And you've worked very hard.

[notofworks]

Here are the Chuck Smith notes which, I'm sure, you'll disagree with. But here they are nonetheless.





WHY WOULD PAUL ASK THIS QUESTION?
A. He no doubt saw that their experience in Christ was lacking something.
1. Maybe there was an absence of love.
a. One of the real marks of the truly Spirit filled life is love. The fruit of the Spirit is love.
b. This love is described as bringing joy and peace, and causing us to be longsuffering. It manifests itself in gentleness, goodness, meekness faithfulness and self control.
2. Maybe they lacked real zeal and enthusiasm for the things of the Spirit.
3. It could be that they lacked a real dynamic in their walk with Jesus, and their witness for Him.
4. Whatever it was that Paul noticed, he suspicioned their deficiency was due to the absence of the Holy Spirit.
B. It is one thing to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and quite another to be overflowing with the Spirit.
1. When on the feast day, recorded by John in chapter 7, Jesus stood and cried to the assembled multitude, "If any man thirst let him come unto Me and drink, and he that drinks of the water that I give, as the scripture says, out of his innermost being there will flow rivers of living water." John tells us that Jesus was speaking of the Spirit which was not yet given.
a. What did He say of the Spirit? He would be like a torrent of living water flowing out from your life.
b. The question really is not do you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, but do you have the Holy Spirit flowing out from your life like a torrent of living water?
2. You can pour water in a glass until the glass is full, but if you keep pouring, the glass will begin to overflow. There is a difference between full and overflowing.
C. Many have complained of the difficulty of living the Christian life, and have given up because they found that it was too difficult. It is not only difficult, it is impossible.
1. It is very frustrating to see the ideal and to admire the ideal, to admit to the ideal, and then be unable to live up to the standards of the ideal.
2. Paul spoke of that frustration in his own life in Romans 7. "I do the things I don't want to do, and I don't do the things I desire to do. I hate the things I do. I consent to the law that it is good, but I cannot perform that which is good. When I would do good, evil is present with me. My inward man delights in the law of God, but their is another law in my flesh that wars against my mind, and brings me into bondage to my flesh. Oh wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of death?"
3. Paul then found his answer in chapter 8 as he speaks of the life in the Spirit. "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed me from the law of sin and death, for what the law could not do because of the weakness of my flesh, God has done for me by sending His Son in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in me as I walk after the Spirit. So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God, but we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit if the Spirit of God is dwelling in us."
4. He shows me the ideal, and then gives me the power to live the ideal.
III. HAVE YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT? IS THERE SOMETHING MISSING IN YOUR WALK WITH THE LORD? ARE YOU LIVING A DYNAMIC CHRISTIAN LIFE?
A. On a scale of one to ten, where would you rate your fervency for Christ?
B. If Paul would meet you and visit for a while, would he be apt to ask you if you received the Holy Spirit when you believed?
C. Is the Spirit flowing forth from your life like a torrent of living water?
D. Would you like a new dynamic to live the Christian life?
E. Ask the Father for the gift of the Holy Spirit, that your life might overflow with His love and power. Jesus said that if you earthly fathers know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those that ask Him.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Here are the Chuck Smith notes which, I'm sure, you'll disagree with. But here they are nonetheless.





WHY WOULD PAUL ASK THIS QUESTION?
A. He no doubt saw that their experience in Christ was lacking something.
1. Maybe there was an absence of love.
a. One of the real marks of the truly Spirit filled life is love. The fruit of the Spirit is love.
b. This love is described as bringing joy and peace, and causing us to be longsuffering. It manifests itself in gentleness, goodness, meekness faithfulness and self control.
2. Maybe they lacked real zeal and enthusiasm for the things of the Spirit.
3. It could be that they lacked a real dynamic in their walk with Jesus, and their witness for Him.
4. Whatever it was that Paul noticed, he suspicioned their deficiency was due to the absence of the Holy Spirit.
B. It is one thing to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and quite another to be overflowing with the Spirit.
1. When on the feast day, recorded by John in chapter 7, Jesus stood and cried to the assembled multitude, "If any man thirst let him come unto Me and drink, and he that drinks of the water that I give, as the scripture says, out of his innermost being there will flow rivers of living water." John tells us that Jesus was speaking of the Spirit which was not yet given.
a. What did He say of the Spirit? He would be like a torrent of living water flowing out from your life.
b. The question really is not do you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, but do you have the Holy Spirit flowing out from your life like a torrent of living water?
2. You can pour water in a glass until the glass is full, but if you keep pouring, the glass will begin to overflow. There is a difference between full and overflowing.
C. Many have complained of the difficulty of living the Christian life, and have given up because they found that it was too difficult. It is not only difficult, it is impossible.
1. It is very frustrating to see the ideal and to admire the ideal, to admit to the ideal, and then be unable to live up to the standards of the ideal.
2. Paul spoke of that frustration in his own life in Romans 7. "I do the things I don't want to do, and I don't do the things I desire to do. I hate the things I do. I consent to the law that it is good, but I cannot perform that which is good. When I would do good, evil is present with me. My inward man delights in the law of God, but their is another law in my flesh that wars against my mind, and brings me into bondage to my flesh. Oh wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of death?"
3. Paul then found his answer in chapter 8 as he speaks of the life in the Spirit. "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed me from the law of sin and death, for what the law could not do because of the weakness of my flesh, God has done for me by sending His Son in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in me as I walk after the Spirit. So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God, but we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit if the Spirit of God is dwelling in us."
4. He shows me the ideal, and then gives me the power to live the ideal.
III. HAVE YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT? IS THERE SOMETHING MISSING IN YOUR WALK WITH THE LORD? ARE YOU LIVING A DYNAMIC CHRISTIAN LIFE?
A. On a scale of one to ten, where would you rate your fervency for Christ?
B. If Paul would meet you and visit for a while, would he be apt to ask you if you received the Holy Spirit when you believed?
C. Is the Spirit flowing forth from your life like a torrent of living water?
D. Would you like a new dynamic to live the Christian life?
E. Ask the Father for the gift of the Holy Spirit, that your life might overflow with His love and power. Jesus said that if you earthly fathers know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those that ask Him.

sheeesh talk about side stepping the issue that is still in front of your face. HEY CHUCK... you don't ask a question that would be redundant to ask if it was simply thought that one believed they had received the HS by blind faith. THE ISSUE STILL REMAINS! ONE WOULD EXPECT that question to be asked if there was a expectation of the manifested presence of the Spirit as witness. Especially since you have another witness that shows PEOPLE KNEW that they had not "received" the HS and simply believing and being baptized was not the expectation "to know" in Acts 8.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

sheeesh talk about side stepping the issue that is still in front of your face. HEY CHUCK... you don't ask a question that would be redundant to ask if it was simply thought that one believed they had received the HS by blind faith. THE ISSUE STILL REMAINS! ONE WOULD EXPECT that question to be asked if there was a expectation of the manifested presence of the Spirit as witness. Especially since you have another witness that shows PEOPLE KNEW that they had not "received" the HS and simply believing and being baptized was not the expectation "to know" in Acts 8.

Well, write Chuck a letter and complain, then.

"This generation seeketh a sign." You're insisting on a "sign" aren't you?

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Well, write Chuck a letter and complain, then.

"This generation seeketh a sign." You're insisting on a "sign" aren't you?

same out of context use as usual... Congrats. nah I would rather write to even worse people like Dillow, Stanley, and host of others...

[TheLegalist]

••Actually, Ephesians 1:13 negates everything you've said. It very simply says, "And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago".

LOL! As usual you ignore the witness that receiving the HS is not by blind faith that you have. Congrats on your continued insistance in error. I have no problem with the verse as I can see it for what it is. You on the other hand really can't answer the questions presented and chuck doesn't either.

So do you believe that verse? Let's ask this...does every person who believes receive the Holy Spirit? That is what it says, so do you believe that? Would you take it to believe that if you believe, you will...as in a futuristic statement....receive the Holy Spirit?

Does a person receive the HS before baptism? I imagine you would say yes and I as well say yes you can. Yet THEY KNEW THEY DIDN'T BY SIMPLY BELIEVING!

••When I believed in my heart and confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord and that God has raised Him from the dead. Simple.

and the continuance of blind faith teaching when Acts clearly shows different.

••It has everything to do with it. It's a very simple statement that cannot be added to. Well, it can be added to, which you are doing, but it's not right.

yeaaaahhh.... the problem is like all your other friends is you make "faith" one thing and not about the whole. Typcal...

People had already believed and had not received... Paul asked HAVE YOU SINCE which means it is not automatic reception without knowing THUS NOT BLIND FAITH.

••I'm gonna post something Chuck Smith said about this verse. I'm sure you'll disagree, but I'll put it in a separate post.

yawn...

••But it doesn't say, "If you believe you CAN receive". It says "Which will be given to everyone who believes."

YES believes is a continous understanding it not about "once believed received." LOL!

••What would you like to know...what Simon the sorcerer saw? There are a myriad of things he could have seen. Chuck Smith mentions the number of ways the Holy Spirit manifests itself. If you put Simon's testimony into a box where it can only mean "Tongues", you are doing the Holy Spirit a GREAT disservice. The Holy Spirit is SO much more and I hate to see you, or others limit it to that.

hmm the continous witness is clear and the witness is that he "speaks" as a witness. That is how God is. The unruly member bears witness of the Spirit.

Originally Posted by notofworks

If one works hard enough at it, one can make any verse mean anything. And you've worked very hard.

yes and the believe only crowd has to ignore the points made.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

LOL! As usual you ignore the witness that receiving the HS is not by blind faith that you have. Congrats on your continued insistance in error. I have no problem with the verse as I can see it for what it is. You on the other hand really can't answer the questions presented and chuck doesn't either.



Does a person receive the HS before baptism? I imagine you would say yes and I as well say yes you can. Yet THEY KNEW THEY DIDN'T BY SIMPLY BELIEVING!




and the continuance of blind faith teaching when Acts clearly shows different.




yeaaaahhh.... the problem is like all your other friends is you make "faith" one thing and not about the whole. Typcal...

People had already believed and had not received... Paul asked HAVE YOU SINCE which means it is not automatic reception without knowing THUS NOT BLIND FAITH.



yawn...



YES believes is a continous understanding it not about "once believed received." LOL!



hmm the continous witness is clear and the witness is that he "speaks" as a witness. That is how God is. The unruly member bears witness of the Spirit.



yes and the believe only crowd has to ignore the points made.

So you believe Simon the sorcerer "saw" tongues? How does one do that? Are you speaking of the cloven tongues of fire resting on one's head or tongues that he was speaking? Whichever, I've never "seen" tongues. I've heard them (Alleged tongues, anyway). Earlier in Acts 8 it was noted the great joy that was present. Simon certainly could have seen that.

You yawned. Sorry for boring you.

You "Tongues-only" folks insist that Acts 2 is the benchmark for all history in establishing precedent for salvation. I have never seen tongues in my lifetime, allegedly or otherwise, nor anything else that happened in the upper room account. I've never seen any sound, come to think of it.

I've never seen fire on top of anyone's head, a rushing mighty wind, and I haven't seen people speak in a language that was intelligible to someone who speaks another language. Yet you "Tongues-only" people insist that we must do things just like Acts 2.

So I'll make a deal with you...when you see those things take place, I'll give tongues a shot. Until then, I'll fulfill every command the bible gives me for salvation and in the process, be empowered everyday of my life by the power of the Holy Spirit that resides in me!

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

So you believe Simon the sorcerer "saw" tongues? How does one do that? Are you speaking of the cloven tongues of fire resting on one's head or tongues that he was speaking? Whichever, I've never "seen" tongues. I've heard them (Alleged tongues, anyway). Earlier in Acts 8 it was noted the great joy that was present. Simon certainly could have seen that.

You yawned. Sorry for boring you.

You "Tongues-only" folks insist that Acts 2 is the benchmark for all history in establishing precedent for salvation. I have never seen tongues in my lifetime, allegedly or otherwise, nor anything else that happened in the upper room account. I've never seen any sound, come to think of it.

I've never seen fire on top of anyone's head, a rushing mighty wind, and I haven't seen people speak in a language that was intelligible to someone who speaks another language. Yet you "Tongues-only" people insist that we must do things just like Acts 2.

So I'll make a deal with you...when you see those things take place, I'll give tongues a shot. Until then, I'll fulfill every command the bible gives me for salvation and in the process, be empowered everyday of my life by the power of the Holy Spirit that resides in me!

yes... you do bore me but it's not really you per se but the same old responses. After a while it gets old. Nothing has changed in the decades I have debated. Baptism, Works, Faith and all the rest...

Go for it.... live the life you believe he leads you to live. "If" it is his will you won't find argument from me.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

yes... you do bore me but it's not really you per se but the same old responses. After a while it gets old. Nothing has changed in the decades I have debated. Baptism, Works, Faith and all the rest...

Go for it.... live the life you believe he leads you to live. "If" it is his will you won't find argument from me.

Do you have any idea how old it gets to hear the same old, "What did Simon see" question? But there's an issue that you "Tongues-only" folks ignore as well. I asked it and you completely blew it off. If the Acts 2 event is the benchmark for salvation, why have we never seen it repeated? Literally, I've never seen one element of that day take place.