Question For The Evangelical Type Apostolics

[Michael The Disciple]

Jason

When my old pastor (an ex UPC) started saying things like "Joel Osteens preaching the same message as me I'm just going about it a little differently" and when they took a group to TD Jakes Manpower conference (and I think also MegaFest that featured Creflo Dollar & Oprah) it was just too much for me. When the minister who took up the offering made everyone wave stand up said "get something in your hand, everyone get something in your hand, now wave it around. Say 'this is my offering... God will bless me" And this went on for 20 minutes and the pastor neither stopped it nor straightened it out afterward, that was enough for me.

Its true at times I identify myself as "Charismatic". That is in the same sense in which I identify with the Jesus movement. I came up through them as a young believer.

I met people and some groups of Charismatics who were quite interesting and fired my imagination in God. I see nothing like them among todays Charismatics. But I do believe those who really have the Spirit have it just as real as "Apostolics" do.

Now the Cessasionist type groups is another story. I find little in common with them and am usually not welcomed by them.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Jason I would be honored if you would take a few minutes and see my testimony about baptism in Jesus name.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZDRk...o8-tTOmXRQW8rg

Enjoyed your testimony MTD! Once your eyes have been opened to who Jesus is, it is really hard to associate with those who have not seen it yet for themselves. Pray for them, love them, but it is hard to have close fellowship with them.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I actually agree with you a lot on this. I really believe that some of the best music and preaching is within the oneness movement. I really think they could have had so much more impact in the 20th century had they decided that standards was the hill the would fight on and it was the hill their movement died on.

There has been such a mass exodus from the OP movement, especially amongst the young ministers I think the UPC is really going to struggle the next 20 years and maybe dwindle to the point if being totally irrelevant. And oddly enough I really think DKB is the best man to lead the UPC, I admit to being surprised that his leadership doesn't seem to be having an impact on the org.

If the UPC continues to be stagnant or go backwards, I'm not sure there is another oneness org to fill the vacuum. But the positive is that a lot if the oneness people that left remain oneness even amongst main stream Christianity. Perhaps in a generation or two trinitarians will see oneness are not the heretics they proclaim us to be.

Most trinitarians are really confused about what oneness is. The thing I hear most is they believe we believe that God was the Father, ceased being the Father and became the Son, ceased being the Son and is now the Holy Ghost. I think we've got to do a better job articulating what we really believe. But I do think were doing better. I thought both Bernard and Perkins got the better of James White in their debates and that Bernard certainly got the better of Gene Cook. But I think a lot of debates don't really reflect well on the oneness position.

I'm kinda in between a rock and hard place. I left the OP movement but I still identify with them quite a bit, however I like the conservatism, theology, and emphasis on the Word that is found in the Reformed movement.

I'm not a cessationist but I do believe OPs have a lot of things go on in their meetings that are 1)not the Holy Ghost but are attributed to Him and 2)in direct violation of 1 Corinthians 14.

I haven't ruled out returning to the oneness movement because my view of the godhead and baptism hasn't changed but I just can't see going back into the UPC and it seems like nearly every ex-UPC type group I've heard of or people I've been in fellowship with end up going charismatic. And I know that's a derogatory term but I'm not meaning it that way, I mean they don't just drop standards they embrace either mildly or extremely Word of Faith doctrines and preachers, and such. I want nothing to do with that even if they baptize in JN.

I don't just want anything to do with TD Jakes. Sure he baptizes in JN but he runs with Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar, Paula White, and Oprah Winfrey. Who a man ministers with says a lot about what doctrines are important/unimportant to him.

When my old pastor (an ex UPC) started saying things like "Joel Osteens preaching the same message as me I'm just going about it a little differently" and when they took a group to TD Jakes Manpower conference (and I think also MegaFest that featured Creflo Dollar & Oprah) it was just too much for me. When the minister who took up the offering made everyone wave stand up said "get something in your hand, everyone get something in your hand, now wave it around. Say 'this is my offering... God will bless me" And this went on for 20 minutes and the pastor neither stopped it nor straightened it out afterward, that was enough for me.

So that's a big reason I find myself within the circle of conservative evangelical Christianity because I'd much rather be with people who love the Word of God even if their church services are A LOT different than what I'm used to. Because I'd rather be that than Word if Faith. Seriously I think I'd just give up on church before going to a WoF church. It makes me sick. Literally. Makes my stomach hurt.

Jason, I guess we are both in the same place. We love the revelation of who Jesus is, the worship, praise and sold out desire to live for God that is found within the OP ranks, but the extravagant dress, hairstyles, and unbiblical mandates that are placed at the salvational level make it next to impossible to fellowship with them, which leaves you kind of out in left field. And looking around at the different organizations, and churches out there, the WoF is infiltrating almost every church now. It is just sickening to hear it. Bleh! Makes my stomach turn too.

I understand your decision to stay where you are at, it is the lesser of two evils, I guess, but there is always the hope that there is going to be more and more people that God will bring out of that mindset who will love holiness of heart more than the outward dress code, and who will embrace giving as the standard of the apostles, and not the catholic-led tithing doctrine, and who will continue to worship and praise Jesus as the Almighty God. I pray that the Lord begins to raise up men who are willing to stand against the flow and tide of the current OP churches today, and that one day such a church will open its doors near you or me, and even perhaps that the Lord would call you to begin such a work yourself.

[Jason B]

* note*

I meant to write the UPC could have had much more impact had they NOT decided that standards was the hill to fight on
( and die on).

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Jason, I guess we are both in the same place. We love the revelation of who Jesus is, the worship, praise and sold out desire to live for God that is found within the OP ranks, but the extravagant dress, hairstyles, and unbiblical mandates that are placed at the salvational level make it next to impossible to fellowship with them, which leaves you kind of out in left field. And looking around at the different organizations, and churches out there, the WoF is infiltrating almost every church now. It is just sickening to hear it. Bleh! Makes my stomach turn too.

I understand your decision to stay where you are at, it is the lesser of two evils, I guess, but there is always the hope that there is going to be more and more people that God will bring out of that mindset who will love holiness of heart more than the outward dress code, and who will embrace giving as the standard of the apostles, and not the catholic-led tithing doctrine, and who will continue to worship and praise Jesus as the Almighty God. I pray that the Lord begins to raise up men who are willing to stand against the flow and tide of the current OP churches today, and that one day such a church will open its doors near you or me, and even perhaps that the Lord would call you to begin such a work yourself.

I think your really close to understanding where I'm coming from.

I just want to clarify something. I do think the non charismatic reformed/conservative evangelical wing of Christianity includes many saved people. There are some excellent preachers and teachers. They're are people who ate zealous for evangelism. There are many who love holiness and abhor holiness (and they know precious little of anything resembling standards, yet they believe in modesty, godliness, holiness and all such virtues). I believe they are good Christian people. I love them. I enjoy their fellowship. I believe they are saved.
But its not the same fellowship as with other oneness believers. I can elaborate on that if needed.


As far as men who are willing to stand against the flow of OP churches, I am more than willing to. And to do it in love. I remained faithful to my pastor and church until his death despite the fact he told me I'd go to hell for not tithing and abruptly ended my preaching ministry. (At the time). Still I was loyal to him, moved away but drove an hour one way to all three weekly services. Visited him at his home as he suffered through cancer, and keep his pic in my living room and one in my study. I love the man. I believe I can oppose doctrine and dialogue with love.

What I have found to be the case though is if you buck the system and challenge anything your person will be assassinated. Men far greater than me (I'm a nobody. I know it. I accept it. I'm fine with it. I'm not trying to suggest I'm anything note than an obscure preacher in a small town)...have trued. Loren Yadon, recently Steve Pixler. Guys who if the movement were ever going to listen it would've those guys. But instead they dispose of them like the plague.

Which brings me to your last comment about starting a work. Actually I am pastoring a church right now, but its a Bible Church (long story I can share if needed on PM, and some stuff publicly). See beliefs here Fellowshipbiblentx.org

[Jason B]

One more thing to consider as far as different groups of believers being saved. Jesus didn't tell the Pharisees, Sadducees, Ebionites or other Jewish sects they were heretical or non Jewish. He did line up with the Pharisees doctrinally more than the other groups but didn't condemn them.

Likewise when he told John not to forbid the nan casting out devils just because he wasn't part of their group. I think this indicates we are much more willing to divide and condemn others if the same faith to hell than God is.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I think your really close to understanding where I'm coming from.

I just want to clarify something. I do think the non charismatic reformed/conservative evangelical wing of Christianity includes many saved people. There are some excellent preachers and teachers. They're are people who ate zealous for evangelism. There are many who love holiness and abhor holiness (and they know precious little of anything resembling standards, yet they believe in modesty, godliness, holiness and all such virtues). I believe they are good Christian people. I love them. I enjoy their fellowship. I believe they are saved.
But its not the same fellowship as with other oneness believers. I can elaborate on that if needed.


As far as men who are willing to stand against the flow of OP churches, I am more than willing to. And to do it in love. I remained faithful to my pastor and church until his death despite the fact he told me I'd go to hell for not tithing and abruptly ended my preaching ministry. (At the time). Still I was loyal to him, moved away but drove an hour one way to all three weekly services. Visited him at his home as he suffered through cancer, and keep his pic in my living room and one in my study. I love the man. I believe I can oppose doctrine and dialogue with love.

What I have found to be the case though is if you buck the system and challenge anything your person will be assassinated. Men far greater than me (I'm a nobody. I know it. I accept it. I'm fine with it. I'm not trying to suggest I'm anything note than an obscure preacher in a small town)...have trued. Loren Yadon, recently Steve Pixler. Guys who if the movement were ever going to listen it would've those guys. But instead they dispose of them like the plague.

Which brings me to your last comment about starting a work. Actually I am pastoring a church right now, but its a Bible Church (long story I can share if needed on PM, and some stuff publicly). See beliefs here Fellowshipbiblentx.org

I definitely believe that there are many saved believers outside the OP circles, and I didn't mean to imply that there weren't in my previous post.

And you are right in that many who leave the OP circles are treated horribly by those who once loved them, and that is sad too.

Glad to hear that you are able to do your part for the kingdom of God right where you are. The Lord will bless your efforts

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

One more thing to consider as far as different groups of believers being saved. Jesus didn't tell the Pharisees, Sadducees, Ebionites or other Jewish sects they were heretical or non Jewish. He did line up with the Pharisees doctrinally more than the other groups but didn't condemn them.

Likewise when he told John not to forbid the nan casting out devils just because he wasn't part of their group. I think this indicates we are much more willing to divide and condemn others if the same faith to hell than God is.

Jesus did say that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven. So... even with correct doctrine, as perhaps some of the Pharisees had, and even outward righteousness, without INWARD righteousness it will be impossible to enter the kingdom of heaven. Inward holiness was always the point Jesus was trying to teach to the Pharisees, who were stuck on the outward. Not much has changed today either.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Enjoyed your testimony MTD! Once your eyes have been opened to who Jesus is, it is really hard to associate with those who have not seen it yet for themselves. Pray for them, love them, but it is hard to have close fellowship with them.

Amen!

[Michael The Disciple]

But here's a strange thing. I find it generally just as hard to have close fellowship with the Oneness people who don't see the OTHER THINGS I see!